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5E Synergy of a INT-based warlock

Laurefindel

Adventurer
Just for the sake of the experiment, imagine that Warlock was using Intelligence as their casting stat. What could it imply?

Loses SAD with Paladins, Sorcerers, and Bard (and the few martial classes gaining from high CHA like swashbuckler).
Gains SAD with Wizards and Artificers.

  • Potentially create super fighter-mage with 1-level dip in hexblade (that 1-level dip is somewhat problematic in any situation mind you)
  • Wizards/Warlock would use eldritch blast as their go-to cantrip. It'd be better than the "add your caster ability once to damage" that some wizards gain through arcane schools.
  • Wizards/Warlock would "double-dip" spell slots reset on short rest with arcane recovery.
  • Warlock could gain a few tricks from wizards' arcane schools. Thinking if one would be broken on a warlock. Bladesinger comes to mind, but to what extent...

I know this has been theorized before, but any other implication you could think of?
 

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dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
I will only say I would rather see sorcerers become CON-based spellcasters instead of CHA-based, but not changing warlocks.

Still, removing synergies for all the CHA-based classes would be good. We don't play with Artificers so the only synergy would be Fighter (EK's) and Wizards.
 




Laurefindel

Adventurer
This is purely a theorical exercise; I have no intention of changing anything. The big question was: “what would break?”

5e is solid enough that Int warlocks aren't likely to break anything, but I wonder about the potential pitfalls and repercussions it would have.
 

cbwjm

Hero
I think you've more or less covered it. All it really does is change which classes and skills the warlock synergises with. I actually like an int-based warlock as a full-caster with a book similar to a wizard, an occultist that seeks out forbidden knowledge though I feel like not all of the subclasses fit with this type of character.
 

Bihlbo

Explorer
I will only say I would rather see sorcerers become CON-based spellcasters instead of CHA-based
How would that make sense when describing the class? Their hale and hearty physique is tested when channeling corrupting magic? Lesser beings who enter into these pacts are swiftly killed as soon as they magically start a fire? Mechanically, it doesn't matter. But descriptively it matters a lot.
 

How would that make sense when describing the class? Their hale and hearty physique is tested when channeling corrupting magic? Lesser beings who enter into these pacts are swiftly killed as soon as they magically start a fire? Mechanically, it doesn't matter. But descriptively it matters a lot.
Force of personality has always been an arbitrary metric for sorcerers. Maybe if they worked like World of Darkness mages and exerted their will over reality. But for a class based around fantasy genetics (or whatever substitute you are using), Con is as good a stat as anything when it comes to justifying fluff.

Mechanically, that's a different matter.
 

DeviousQuail

Explorer
This is purely a theorical exercise; I have no intention of changing anything. The big question was: “what would break?”

5e is solid enough that Int warlocks aren't likely to break anything, but I wonder about the potential pitfalls and repercussions it would have.
My guess is you'd see a lot of the same stuff you already do with classes dipping warlock. Hexblade would still be a popular one level dip. Eldritch blast takes over the cantrip scene for intelligence casters. Short rest spell slots combo with long rest casting to give some classes more staying power. I don't think it would break 5e. Some new cheesy options would surely appear but probably not any worse than you already get.

One random consequence of this change is that Intelligence skill checks would probably see more love. With the recent(ish) addition of the artificer and switching warlocks to Intellifence, you've tripled the number of classes that will want a high Intelligence score. That will increase the number of people who will have big numbers for those skills. And if you've got big numbers on your character sheet, you are more likely to try and use those numbers. They're not about to supplant perception or stealth for importance but I could see investigation and arcana being brought up way more often.
 

Marandahir

Crown-Forester
How would that make sense when describing the class? Their hale and hearty physique is tested when channeling corrupting magic? Lesser beings who enter into these pacts are swiftly killed as soon as they magically start a fire? Mechanically, it doesn't matter. But descriptively it matters a lot.
Are you confusing Warlocks with Sorcerers? They were talking about Con-casting Sorcerers and leaving Warlocks as Cha-casters, to deal with the overabundance of Cha-casters a different way.

Your description above is what people complained about with the Con-casting Warlocks in 4e (you were either Cha/Int, Con/Int, or rarely, Con/Cha).

Sorcerers casting from Con is likely an idea to them getting their powers from their blood. Of course, this isn't always the case, and there's plenty of situations where it isn't so, so I'd prefer them to stay Cha-casters, myself.
 

dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
How would that make sense when describing the class? Their hale and hearty physique is tested when channeling corrupting magic? Lesser beings who enter into these pacts are swiftly killed as soon as they magically start a fire? Mechanically, it doesn't matter. But descriptively it matters a lot.
It makes perfect sense as it is their physical bodies which are channeling the magic, whether from their blood, ancestry, or whatever.

The don't enter into pacts (those are warlock).

Warlocks can stay with CHA. We switched sorcerers to CON a long time ago and it works well. Also, given their lack of armor and low HD, it also helps make them less squishy. To us, it makes more sense for CON than CHA, and with Bards, Paladins, and Warlocks ALL CHA-based, we don't need another one... :)
 

CubicsRube

Adventurer
Supporter
I know this doesn't help with the premise of the thread much, but I feel that Warlocks work most thenatically with Wisdom instead. (Deities vs patrons).

With that stat I'd expect you might see odd druid and clerc multiclass combos however.
 

DeviousQuail

Explorer
It makes perfect sense as it is their physical bodies which are channeling the magic, whether from their blood, ancestry, or whatever.

The don't enter into pacts (those are warlock).

Warlocks can stay with CHA. We switched sorcerers to CON a long time ago and it works well. Also, given their lack of armor and low HD, it also helps make them less squishy. To us, it makes more sense for CON than CHA, and with Bards, Paladins, and Warlocks ALL CHA-based, we don't need another one... :)
The sorcerer feels like a class that could thematically get away with different subclasses using different spellcasting attributes. Maybe even give the choice of using charisma or attribute X. It's weird but I don't see it as any different than a fighter picking between strength and dexterity for attacks.
 

jmartkdr2

Adventurer
I'll go one further: I think 5e is robust enough that you could change the casting stat of any caster to another mental stat without breaking anything. Some of the fluff might be weird but that's a personal threshold - the mechanics will be fine.

It would allow for different munchkinry, but munchkinry ultimately derives from the player. No ruleset can prevent it.
 

ZeshinX

Adventurer
It makes perfect sense as it is their physical bodies which are channeling the magic, whether from their blood, ancestry, or whatever.

The don't enter into pacts (those are warlock).

Warlocks can stay with CHA. We switched sorcerers to CON a long time ago and it works well. Also, given their lack of armor and low HD, it also helps make them less squishy. To us, it makes more sense for CON than CHA, and with Bards, Paladins, and Warlocks ALL CHA-based, we don't need another one... :)
I do love the Sorcerer using CON instead.

Reminds me of a spellcasting variant from, I think the 2e era...where you weren't limited to casting from spell slots or spell points, but the more you cast, the greater the toll it would take on your body (i.e. it would cause increasing damage to you after a certain point; the higher level the spell, the more damage you would take). So, your "pool" of magical power was your HP. I think you had a certain amount of "free" spell levels to cast without taking damage, but past that, you'd start taking damage with each casting. That "self-inflicted" damage couldn't be healed through magic, only normal healing over time (which in past editions was significantly harder to achieve). Obviously would need to tinker with the full-healing on long rest system...or lose the ability to spend Hit Dice during rests for healing...something like that.

Might be an interesting thing to explore for a 5e Sorcerer variant, as that would significantly differentiate them as an arcane spellcaster and really give them a unique flavour that metamagic only kinda/sorta does (indeed, metamagic could be reworked as more damage taken to further augment the casting). Opens up a lot of potential subclass options too...a blood magic theme being the most immediately obvious to me.

The obvious downside would be it doesn't fit the MC'ing rules for spellcasters...but if Warlocks can be tracked separately, then so too could an alternate Sorcerer.

*Edit: It reminded me of the Channeller from 2e's Spells & Magic, though it's not at all like I remembered. That one dealt with spell points and a sort of fatigue system from casting.
 
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Burnside

Space Jam Confirmed
At my table I have allowed Warlocks to chose either Intelligence or Charisma as their spellcasting stat at character creation. Worked totally fine and broke nothing.

Caveat that my players don't do a lot of level-dipping or multi-classing in general.
 

Bihlbo

Explorer
Are you confusing Warlocks with Sorcerers?
Yes. Yes, I misread it, thanks. The question is the same for sorcerers, though. It still challenges my creativity to come up with an explanation for it. But I appreciate the good answers to the real question, and my mistaken question.
 


A few good ideas for an Int Warlock subclass:
  • Carving runes into a powerful being and literally stealing their power.
  • Navigating a metaphysical maze, growing closer to the heart.
  • Deciphering the text on ancient tablets of great power.
 

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