Synthetist is Shameful.

[Systole]

I'll see what I can come up with. I'll go with level 10 - the standard used in the DPR olympics - and I'll stick to Paizo-only material.

Excellent. I will be extremely impressed if you can.

You know, I might give it a go myself. Hrm.

 

[Bacris]

I'll admit to not being all that savvy on rogues, but I did a little bit of digging.

Here's a rogue setup that - at level 5 - can make any enemy that isn't immune to fear effects flee with no save. Or be shaken permanently. With no daily limit.

Human Rogue (Scout, Thug)

Feats:
1st: Weapon Finesse
Human Bonus: Sap Adept
3rd: Knockout Artist
5th: Sap Mastery

Rogue Talents:
2nd: Ninja Trick (Unarmed Combat Training)
4th: Combat Trick (Enforcer)

So at 5th level, whenever you charge someone, they are flatfooted (thanks to scout). Since they are flat footed, you deal double nonlethal sneak attack damage (6d6, thanks to sap mastery).

Since you were using your pimp-hand to deal the damage, you deal 1.5 times your level in extra damage due to sap adept and knockout artist. (In this case at level 5, 9 extra damage)

Now Enforcer comes into play, you can intimidate your foe as a free action, because you dealth nonlethal damage (Hope you didn't dump cha). If you succeed, they are shaken for a number of rounds based on the damage you just did (6d6 + 9 minimum), so lets say, forever, basically.
Thats -2 to attacks, skills, saves.

...Or you could switch all those rounds of shaken for one round of frightend (via the thug archetype) where:

Quote:
A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.

Frightened is like shaken, except that the creature must flee if possible. Panicked is a more extreme state of fear.

Which is basically taking any enemy out of the fight for one round, guarunteed and best part is, no save. And since the target for intimidate is static (10 + HD + wis mod), boost it enough (I recommend a cane that gives you an enhancement bonus to intimidate) and you don't have to worry about the enemy making a lucky roll.

 

[Systole]

I made this thread so we don't clutter a synthesist thread with rogue optimization.

 

[joah_from_Alberta]

Bacris, I can tell you are a prominent poster here on enworld and I just don't want to get dragged into a debate based on justifiable arguments.

The synthesist is broken because it is easily exploitable, can tank it's physical attribs to maximize its spell casting (particularly nasty in points buy campaign). The rules for the class are cryptic and complex. (Not to mention that there are a new dirty tricks that are being used with the large/huge to normal size with magics.) The biggest exploit I see in this class is the fact that you don't need to place anything in your physical score because your protective eidolon shelters you all day long. This mechanic in itself makes this class far superior than a regular summoner who must points buy his character equally. Not to mention the mobility granted to the synthesist.

Heh heh, the rogue would get eaten buy a min/maxed level 5 synthesist and you should know better. Tell me, how does it feel to want to be right all the time? Were you also defending the druid back in the day? Is that how you accumulated so many posts and so much connaissance in dissecting other people's posts? Ah ha, enjoy playing your sythesist, I can't imagine how you role play and what decent game would allow such a monster.

Admin here. Joah, one of the fundamental rules here is that you treat other people with politeness and respect, even when you don't agree with them. Heck, especially when you don't agree with them. Stop insulting people, please. I don't want to see this again.

Thanks. PM me with any questions. -- Piratecat

Cheers,

 

[concerro]

How bout instead of making an effort to protect another player character they make an effort to play their own characters.

Unfortunately, I have seemingly antagonized some members of this forum. I do not know of any normal character that has 15 attacks, so I don't understand the relevance of your argument. It is not my intention to introduce a new formula. I simply wish to share the fact that I have devised a new formula for calculating a characters melee power that can be used as a quick reference. It is not scientific, it is not absolute, it is just a quicky and just try it, you might be surprised.

Perhaps there has been an argument regardiung the summoner vs the synthesist before and it would seem that the term action economy is a championed term. Well let me introduce another term that is accepted within the community-- critical mass. I wonder if perhaps BobROE and Bacris actually play synthetists and are coming to it defense.

Well, regardless, I have played with a synthetist in my group and I have read from other peoples comments regarding the synthetist in their group and it is my conclusion that the synthetist is a class designed for power gamers who care little about the integrity and balance of the game and only about their own narcissistic values.

Nobody is upset at you. We are just explaining why the regular summoner is better than the synthesis. I have never, and hopefully I never will, play in a group where the other PC's don't watch my back. If I am the party wizard or cleric, and the fighter allows an open path to me we will be talking after the session is over.

I am assuming critical mass a damage based term. If so the eidolon from a regular summoner does just as much damage as a synthesis. I can promise that if switches over to regular summoner and he knows he spells, the player's character will just be harder to deal with.

 

[concerro]

While I 99% agree with your point, I double-dog dare you to introduce game imbalance with a rogue.

Depends on the GM if he can deal with it or not, but there is the sap master build that doubles sneak attack damage. It has to be nonlethal, but that is just a setup for a coup de grace.

 

[concerro]

Bacris, I can tell you are a prominent poster here on enworld and I just don't want to get dragged into a debate based on justifiable arguments.

The synthesist is broken because it is easily exploitable, can tank it's physical attribs to maximize its spell casting (particularly nasty in points buy campaign). The rules for the class are cryptic and complex. (Not to mention that there are a new dirty tricks that are being used with the large/huge to normal size with magics.) The biggest exploit I see in this class is the fact that you don't need to place anything in your physical score because your protective eidolon shelters you all day long. This mechanic in itself makes this class far superior than a regular summoner who must points buy his character equally. Not to mention the mobility granted to the synthesist.

Heh heh, the rogue would get eaten buy a min/maxed level 5 synthesist and you should know better. Tell me, how does it feel to want to be right all the time? Were you also defending the druid back in the day? Is that how you accumulated so many posts and so much connaissance in dissecting other people's posts? Ah ha, enjoy playing your sythesist, I can't imagine how you role play and what decent game would allow such a monster.

Cheers,

You are taking this way to personally. Most of us don't come here or to any other forum to be right. If we are right then we are, but when proven wrong we have been educated, and that just makes us better gamers. It is a no-lose situation IMHO.

 

[tylermalan]

How bout instead of making an effort to protect another player character they make an effort to play their own characters.

You've never played with people who wanted to protect other party members?

Unfortunately, I have seemingly antagonized some members of this forum. I do not know of any normal character that has 15 attacks, so I don't understand the relevance of your argument.

It's just an analogy. He's trying to point out that your formula may be flawed because it doesn't take into account all of the important factors.

It is not my intention to introduce a new formula... I have devised a new formula

wat

the synthetist is a class designed for power gamers who care little about the integrity and balance of the game and only about their own narcissistic values.

In case you were wondering, this is why you're "seemingly" antagonizing people.

Hypotheticals are great for a discussion point, but actual practice is where things come out to be seen if they're REALLY a problem, or just a PERCEIVED problem.

This.

The synthesist is broken because it is easily exploitable, can tank it's physical attribs to maximize its spell casting (particularly nasty in points buy campaign). The rules for the class are cryptic and complex. (Not to mention that there are a new dirty tricks that are being used with the large/huge to normal size with magics.) The biggest exploit I see in this class is the fact that you don't need to place anything in your physical score because your protective eidolon shelters you all day long. This mechanic in itself makes this class far superior than a regular summoner who must points buy his character equally. Not to mention the mobility granted to the synthesist.

Heh heh, the rogue would get eaten buy a min/maxed level 5 synthesist and you should know better. Tell me, how does it feel to want to be right all the time? Were you also defending the druid back in the day? Is that how you accumulated so many posts and so much connaissance in dissecting other people's posts? Ah ha, enjoy playing your sythesist, I can't imagine how you role play and what decent game would allow such a monster.

Cheers,

Aaaaaaand this is where it gets locked. Glad I made it in! But more to the point, other classes can be optimized and be problematic, man. You're really going heavily against conventional wisdom regarding the Summoner with almost all of your points regarding the power of the Synthesist vs the normal Summoner, and then it seems like you're getting mad when no one else is... there is a disconnect here, somewhere.

Maybe your games are vastly different than the majority of other players' games. In my games, party members work together. Tanks protect casters. Some people optimize a little bit, but are far from narcissistic. Sometimes, someone will optimize a LOT, but will still be far from narcissistic and it rarely (if ever) breaks the game. All try to roleplay. Everyone has a good time. Does this not describe your games?

 

[BobROE]

How bout instead of making an effort to protect another player character they make an effort to play their own characters.

What, wait? So if a player is a team player, they're not playing their own characters?

And I don't play, I DM for a game with a summoner in it, and he's frustratingly annoying cause the edilon can do just as much damage as the melee characters in the party, and the summoner cna cast spells on top of that, which makes everyone else more effective.

 

[joah_from_Alberta]

Nah, critical mass is a scientific term that refers to when something has obtained enough mass to go nuclear. In the case of the synthesist I am using this analogy to demonstrate that by building a piece it can outshine other pieces.

You know, I don't really care if the summoner has better action economy than the synthesist. I actually like the term action economy, I will need to think some more on this term. I have my reservations about it as I think it does not account for board position but yeah, I need to think some more on this term.

For now gentlemen, I have a serious problem with a crertain synthesist in my game. This is causing me some duress but it is also giving me vast insight within myself and my game. I will confide in you that I find myself to be drawn into an adversarial role with my fellow synthesist player. Now I recognise this as my bad and I admit my fault. I do not want to disallow the class. Yet, I do not want to increase the CR challenges for this will cripple the rest of the players.