"Tabletop D&D Has Lost Its Way" Says Pathfinder Video Game Exec

Feargus Urquhart, one of the execs from Obsidian Entertainment, which is behind an upcoming Pathfinder-themed video game, told Polygon why the company chose to go with Paizo rather than WotC for tabletop fantasy inspired games. "One of the reasons we actually went with Pathfinder was ... how do you say it? I'll just say it: We were having a hard time figuring out how to move forward with Dungeons and Dragons." The issue, he says, is that "D&D is a part of Wizards of the Coast and WotC is a part of Hasbro" and that he would "love to see D&D be bought by someone and become what it was before... Become TSR again."

Feargus Urquhart, one of the execs from Obsidian Entertainment, which is behind an upcoming Pathfinder-themed video game, told Polygon why the company chose to go with Paizo rather than WotC for tabletop fantasy inspired games. "One of the reasons we actually went with Pathfinder was ... how do you say it? I'll just say it: We were having a hard time figuring out how to move forward with Dungeons and Dragons." The issue, he says, is that "D&D is a part of Wizards of the Coast and WotC is a part of Hasbro" and that he would "love to see D&D be bought by someone and become what it was before... Become TSR again."

Of course, TSR went bankrupt, so I'm not sure wishing that on somebody is a kindness.

Urquhart is a long-time D&D video game exec, having worked on games like Neverwinter Nights 2; he points out that "I'm probably one of the people who has one of the most electronic D&D games that they've worked on". Now, of course, his company has moved on to Paizo's Pathfinder.

The upcoming Obsidian video games will be based on the Pathfinder games - specifically a tablet game based on the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, due in the next few months. The studio is, of course, known to tabletop RPG fans for D&D games like Neverwinter Nights 2. Urquhart did hint at non-card-game based projects, saying that "We're thinking about how can we take traditional RPG stuff and put it on the tablet. No one has solved it really."

You can read the short interview here.

pathfinderobsidia.jpg

 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
That is true, the DnD Staff are a very small percentage of WotC.

Well, I think WotC, in their hearts, does care a bit more about D&D than as just a revenue stream. The company's origin and history speak to that. Hasbro is a separate matter.

Of course, I don't think we have solid indication that Hasbro mucks in on the design and plans for D&D directly. Until he ponies up such evidence, I am not sure it is a fair criticism. It may be that the D&D end of WotC acts rather like a small company....
 

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Sailor Moon

Banned
Banned
Speaking as someone who has only ever known D&D as a Hasbro brand, I cannot fathom why people are nostalgic for TSRs business practices. Everything I have ever seen indicates an incompetent company with some weird management issues.

Small is not always good; big is not always bad.

But in this case Big is bad.

TSR had a lot of problems, but if it was run correctly then it would have done perfectly fine. Hasbro is not a good company for D&D, due to reasons that have already been discussed. D&D is the type of niche hobby that really needs to stay with a smallish company that just wants to make a table top RPG and make a little money on the side. The moment Hasbro sees the brand as being worth more than the actual RPG then the game will most likely be pushed and pushed until it fades away, or becomes a tiny little game that might get a little support every few years.
 

Keldryn

Adventurer
I would like to have read the entire interview so as to be able to put all of Urquhart's comments into the proper context.

My reading is that he thinks that the future of tabletop D&D is a big question mark. Many people on this very board have expressed the concern that 5e is essentially a "final" version of the game in order to keep something in print while Hasbro focuses on licensing the brand for more profitable ventures. The folks at Paizo have worked hard to develop a community around Pathfinder, and they continue to support than community. D&D isn't a big enough property under the Hasbro umbrella for them to dedicate that kind of care and attention to. Many D&D 3.x fans felt abandoned when WotC released 4e, and many 4e fans felt the same when 5e was announced. Their digital strategy for D&D is something of a mess. Under Hasbro, D&D isn't a profitable enough brand for it to get the resources that it needs to thrive. I think that's what's he's getting at.

At any rate, Feargus Urquhart isn't some clueless exec with a suit and an MBA; he's a gamer who started at Interplay as a playtester in 1991 and ultimately was selected to head up Interplay's new RPG division in 1996. The first game produced by this division was Fallout: A Post-Nuclear Adventure, released in 1997. The following year, this RPG division was re-named Black Isle Studios. They would go on to create several acclaimed RPGs: Fallout 2, Planescape: Torment, Icewind Dale, and Icewind Dale II. They also published Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate II for Bioware.


So, basically is he critiquing the release schedule, or lack there of, the uncertainty of the life span of this edition* and the fact that D&D has a lot more people looking over its shoulder and meddling with it**.

He is right.

Absolutely.

He has been burned by Hasbro's handling of the D&D computer/video game license in the past. In 1995, TSR divided the D&D license among mulitple publishers, with Interplay being granted the license to the Forgotten Realms and Planescape brands. WotC purchased TSR in 1997, and were in turn acquired by Hasbro in 1999; at this point in time, Hasbro's existing subsidiary Hasbro Interactive gained the right to use the D&D brand in their software products. In 2001, Hasbro Interactive was sold to Infogrames Entertainment (which later rebranded itself Atari after acquring that trademark), transfering the D&D electronic license with it. According to Urquhart, Interplay lost the D&D license in late 2002 or early 2003, two years into the production of Baldur's Gate III. The rights have since reverted back to Hasbro/WotC. WotC's handling of their "digital initiative" has been abyssmal, to say the least, so I would probably be somewhat reluctant to work with them.

Also, if "becoming TSR again" means "turning on the supplement treadmill and crashing down"... then, no thanks!

I'm pretty sure he means that D&D needs to be managed by what is effectively "The D&D Company." Not as an afterthought to a collectible card game as part of a subsidiary to one of the largest toy companies in the world. Likewise, computer RPGs are best in the hands of those who appreciate how and why they are different from mainstream action games.

Obsidian could not afford the D&D license most likely; they have not been doing well. They had to kickstart their last game (Wasteland 2).

InXile Entertainment made Wasteland 2, not Obsidian. Brian Fargo founded InXile after he left Interplay back in 2002 -- a company which he also founded back in 1983. Obsidian funded Pillars of Eternity on Kickstarter. Both companies turned to Kickstarter to fund these games so that they could make the games that they wanted to make without having to compromise their vision to suit a publisher's whims. Fargo has talked about this many times; he pitched Wasteland 2 to several publishers, only to have it rejected because they considered turn-based RPGs to be unprofitable and outdated relics.

Kickstarter has been a blessing for fans of computer RPGs (and adventure games) from the 80s and 90s. It has nothing to do with whether or not a company is doing well.

Obsidian seems to jump from one publisher and license to the next. They've probably burned a lot of bridges over the years.

They're an independent studio and they need to be working on projects in order to stay in business, so they take the work that is available. They aren't "jumping" from one publisher and license to the next; they're essentially freelancers who bid on jobs that are available. It was actually Matt Stone and Trey Parker who approached Obsidian about working on South Park: The Stick of Truth. The development problems with that game were absolutely the result of THQ going bankrupt and UbiSoft's demands for significant changes upon acquiring the rights to the game.

Wait, those weren't even Obsidian ports?

...What has Obsidian been doing for the last five years? Alpha Protocol, Dungeon Siege III, and the Stick of Truth?

They released Fallout: New Vegas the same year as Alpha Protocol (2010), and they're currently working on Armored Warfare (tactical MMO) and Pillars of Eternity (since 2012), as well as this Pathfinder game. Microsoft canceled Obsidian's unannounced Xbox One project in 2012, forcing them to lay off 20-30 people.

Given Obsidian Entertainment is these days known for their buggy, low-quality games and problems solving coding issues that even I, with my amateur level of coding skill, have learned how to solve just by reading the textbook...

Game development is hard. I've been there and done that. There is a 0% chance that an amateur coder could keep up with the least skilled programmer on their team.

Their games do unfortunately tend to be buggy, but very few other development studios even attempt to make games that react to the player's decisions the way that Obsidian tries to -- much like Troika Games before them (Arcanum, Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines, and The Temple of Elemental Evil). Both studios were founded by people who worked on the original Fallout game, and their games are heavily inspired by those design sensibilities. Knights of the Old Republic II was buggy and unfinished, with an abrupt endgame that could barely be called an "ending," but it was also a more ambitious and complex game than was the original.

Fallout: New Vegas attempted to portray a more reactive world than did Fallout 3, which is one reason why it was a buggier game. Also, as with KOTOR2, it had a much shorter development cycle (18 months for F:NV), which inevitably means that there is less time for QA. The publisher is responsible for the bulk of the QA, by the way. Developers will typically have a small team of testers who work alongside the designers and programmers, but the large-scale QA is handled by the publisher. In many cases, the publisher will sign off on a game and release it, despite the developers telling them that there are still severe bugs present.
 

I came into the interview ready to roll my eyes, but upon reading the full interview he makes a good point. To Hasbro, D&D is just another brand - one of dozens - and the one that makes significantly less money.

Hasbro has listed DnD as one of its top-earners, even beating out a few other flagship products.

As far as Hasbro is concerned, DnD is probably golden right now. It's making enough money to help cover for profit losses in other product lines.

So, when Hasbro looks at their bottom line, they see DnD is a product that is making them money where other products failed. DnD isn't even on the list of products to meddle with right now.
Well, no. The opposite really. They called out D&D as making more money and helping offset losses in Q3, but the brands that performed better didn't make enough to make up for the brands doing poorly in 2014.

And in the most recent report:
http://icv2.com/articles/news/view/30836/hasbro-reports-profitable-q4-year
They don't even mention D&D at all, despite the holidays and the release of the DMG (and the MM to big box stores).
 

Rygar

Explorer
I say this is Obsidian's loss, someone else's gain.

...Provided WotC gets those licenses sorted out quickly and cleanly.

The problem there is that there really isn't anyone else other than InXile, who is closely aligned with Obsidian and whom WOTC already refused to license Planescape to.

Bethesda doesn't make RPG's anymore, they make player-skill based action adventures, they're so far from RPG today that they don't even bother implementing character stats. Bioware doesn't make RPG's anymore, they make action-centric dating sims. They abandoned RPG's shortly after EA took over. Heck, it's likely that the spell list would be limited by the number of buttons on a gamepad.

There really isn't anyone else left. Anything made by any other company would bear very little resemblance to D&D.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
Well, I think WotC, in their hearts, does care a bit more about D&D than as just a revenue stream. The company's origin and history speak to that. Hasbro is a separate matter.

Of course, I don't think we have solid indication that Hasbro mucks in on the design and plans for D&D directly. Until he ponies up such evidence, I am not sure it is a fair criticism. It may be that the D&D end of WotC acts rather like a small company....

I think that you are absolutely right that the people working on DnD care more about the game then just as a revenue stream. On the other hand, the CEO of WotC is not working on DnD.
 


Ridley's Cohort

First Post
I think that you are absolutely right that the people working on DnD care more about the game then just as a revenue stream. On the other hand, the CEO of WotC is not working on DnD.

A number of those D&D products people are nostalgic for were created under the "leadership" of Lorraine Williams. Just saying.
 

Well, I think WotC, in their hearts, does care a bit more about D&D than as just a revenue stream. The company's origin and history speak to that. Hasbro is a separate matter.
Except that the CEO of WotC was an ex-Hasbro employee brought in a little under a decade ago, replacing another Hasbro suit. Very likely the entire upper management structure has no strong feelings regarding any of the products, let alone D&D.
 


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