Tactical Gaming and Character Building to complicated in D&D?

[Obergnom]

Hi,

my current campaign is running great, but I think I can see my players have a bunch of problems. While the roleplaying part is great, the gaming aspect of D&D seems to overwhelm them.
We play D&D 3.5 together for 3 years know and I always knew about this problem, I just thought it would change when time goes by. That is obviously not the case

Examples: The campaign is somewhat like the old Queen of the Spiders Module (Informations can be found here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=195632)

When the players fought against Skurver (A Hill Giant Wereboar, CR7, as I created weaker Hill Giants) Skurver killed the Ranger. Later they fought against Skurver and two more Hill Giants (They were ambushing those Giants. An encounter against a CR7 and two CR5 creatures, total EL=9 against 4 Level 7 characters) and the Goliath Fighter/Barbarian got killed in a single round, because the rest of the group let him fight alone in the front without anyone doing something that would prevent the giants from doing full attacks.
I planed the giants part of the campaign as something for the players to shine, as I thought the Underdark Encounters later on will be frustrating enough (Drow = Masters of Annoyance). The giants have awful reflex and will saves, which in my opinion is enough to dominate them in combat.
I myself tend to play the parties wizard when I am not Dming, doing the whole crowd control and “complicated” buff part (Buffs that do more than +4 Strenght). And thats exactly where their problem is:

Their whole battle tactic can be described as: Everyone do as much damage as possible every round or heal someone. If we do that we must either win, or we have bad luck or the encounter was unfair.

They know that. I told them. Still they changed nothing. Of course, every character in the group is build to fulfill their concept. Every feat (and spell) is used to do more damage or avoid being hit. The characters are not really able to fight with finesse. I shudder when I think of an encounter with a mind flayer and his troglodyte minions. They do not even have dispel magic and the goliaths will save is very low.

I really think my players would prefer a game where their tactic is a good way of winning. Where you do not need to think like you were playing a tactical board game to overcome the tougher challenges. I'm a tabletop wargamer, to me that part of the game is no problem. I like to do the “metagame analysis” to learn which tactics to employ against what kind of enemy. I also tend to build my characters to be able to cope with a lot of different situations. At the moment I use that knowledge to have my monsters behave in the least effective way. Thats kind of frustrating, and something I can do when using giants, but drow?

What do you think would be a good solution for my game? I do not see them investing time into learning advances tactics and complicated character builds, but without those, D&D as written in the level range of 6 and up seems to be very deadly. They would like the fighter to be able to stand for a certain amount of time, even under the onslaught of tougher enemies. And they would like the sorcerer to be able to actually kill things using his fireball.(You could also say, they simply like Weapon Spec more than Improved Trip and Fireball more than Web. Although the game often proves that the opposite is true)
And to be honest, I do like those more, too. They are just no good option when considering the game aspect of D&D. (Oh, and simply not using those tactics myself does not work. The giants were the tough dump ones.) As I said in the beginning, the campaign runs well, and the players are not frustrated, it is just that they never seem to be able to shine, because the try to do an arms race with the monsters, which does not work, as it seems.

 

[Aus_Snow]

3. . . 2. . . 1. . .

C&C!

Hehe.


Nah, I dunno. But if it just ain't working, maybe checking out another system is the go.

 

[Obergnom]

lol, actually, I own and like that system. (Used it for 2 one shots) My players do not like not having unlimited building options. (Allthough they do not use those... oh well...)

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hi Obergnom,

What characters have you got in your group?
If you as DM do something strategically "interesting" against them, do they think "boy that was different", or do they simply not care about incorporating "cool" things into their arsenal or are they completely oblivious to everything aside from hit points and damage?

Perhaps your encounters have been a little too one dimensional with everything being a fight to the death? It's hard to figure out what's going on here unless you provide a little more specific information.

If you want to expand their tactical repertoire, you can always provide interesting wands/rods that the party can use after they've looted them (they get to see the bright new shiny toy in action, then they get to use it after).

In addition, you can colour encounters so there is more to do than just hit things. For example, have an open door that can be barred be pivotal in an encounter so that if the PCs don't bar it, the re-inforcements that have just been called will overwhelm them. Use different magical effects that force alternative solutions. Brighten your array of encounters. It's just hard to gauge what might help until you provide a little more information.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Obergnom]

okay.

The Cast:

A Goliath Fighter5/Barbarian1: A Damage Monster. (Allways enlarged when raging) the only non damage Feat is Knockback, which allows him to push enemies away from him, when hitting with a melee attack and using power attack. Skills: Climb

A Woodelf Ranger7: Lots of arrows, lots of strenght and dex. Uses 2 Spells: Arrow Mind (do not provoke AAO with a bow when in melee) and Hunter Mercy (Auto Crit if next attack hits)
Skills: Scouting Ranger Style - Hide, Move Silent, Listen, Spot, Survival...

A River Spirit Folk Druid 7(PHB2 Variant): Only Char with real non damage potential. Uses Summon Natures Ally, Flame Strike, Call Lightning, Cure Wounds as spells. Does not use his predator or arial form to do tactic movement (Those have mobility or fly by attack, after all) just as a speed buff and for scouting purposes. Skills: Know Nature, Survival, a little bit of most other class skills.

An Aasimar (ECL 0 Variant) Sorcerer6/Holy Scourge1: He can burn a fire giant. (Using Sacred Spell and Piercing Evocation. His only utility spell is Invisibility. Favorite Spells: Fireball, Scorching Ray. Does not have a single scroll.
Skills: Bluff. A few ranks to in some other skills.

Only at the beginning of the campaign: A dwarven cleric 6 (the campaign began at level 6) who focused on summoning, healing, buffing and Armor Class. Was not able to hurt enemies. That player leaving really hurt the group. He was the single utility>damage character. But the player did not like playing such a character. If he had not quit, he would have changed his character to be more offensive.

They have got a collection of magic items (we use the MIC). Mostly they chose stuff that allows them to do more damage or heal themselves.


The Encounters:

I admit, so far this campaign did not have very diverse encounters, so far. Thats because I thought I would do my players a favor. They tend to be overburdend with to complex encounters. I wanted to give them time to get into their characters before doing some more complex stuff. And this should help e stress the differnece between fighting drow and giants.

So far the encounters were:

An attack of a Frost Giantess and her 2 Winter Wolf pets during a snow storm. During this encounter they had a dwarven cleric, and actually, the encounter went well, considering it was quite tough.

A fly by attack by the half-dragon pyro hydra that was the mount of the chief of the hill giants. That encounter was not meant to be played to the end, the hydra was just playing. They were totaly confused and even after 2 of them got hit by a breath attack, the others bunched together. As the hydra did not want to stay, it just flew on, leaving the PC highly damaged and fearfull of that beast.

A raid attack by 41 orcs during the night. (They did not search the evironment of their resting playe, actually resting in front of a whole tribe of orcs.) That encounter was ment to gibe4 the golith a way to shine, as he was in a kind of "trip lock" during the fight with the Frost Giantess and her winter wolves and I new the sorcerer was out of 3rd Level spells. A very Helms Deep like fight, as the PCs were resting in a ruined keep. Did not work out, because of weird movement descissions made by my players. The goliath for example prefered to only ever fight a single orc standing on some stairs, although the orcs never really hurt him. Thus he was unable to cleave. Did not use a heroics potion to get creat cleave either. (He has some of those, iirc)

A "talking" encounter with an uppish cormyrian noble that was threatening a prospector the PC needed to get some information from. The solved the encounter by the force of arms. The noble was no true threat, more like a ploitical problem. This will get back to them later on.

The rest was pretty much a siege scenario. The giants have a huge stronghold, in this there were 6 normal giants, 4 Dire Wolves, the Owl Bear Mascot of the Tribe, 6 elite (different equipment, not higher stats), Skurver - the wereboar hill giant skurver, who serves as scout, and the chief, Velikar. A vrock possessed (Template from Advanced Beastiary, basically giving him some Vrock abilies) Hill Giant and his Mount Asiroxa, a 6 headed Half-Dragon (red) pyro Hydra.

The first attack had the characters struggle for a long time how to get near the keep without being seen, as they had close to no options to do so. (At that time, the sorcerer did not have invisibility). They were able to kill 4 Hill Giants and 4 Dire Wolves than they had to flee. That went pretty well, because of a Haste Scroll they found earlier. (They did not restock that, alltough it is highly usefull for their damage oriented playing style)

They were followed by skurver, who later on attacked them on his own. (They were at full Hit Points again, and still had a lot of spells left). That fight went horribly. They had a bit of bad luck and just no idea how to prevent Skurver from doing (devasting) full attacks. The Ranger died

After resurecting the Ranger in Tilverton, they di d a bt more of scouting near the keep, and were seen. They ran, a small force of giants (the owlbear, 2 Giants and skurver were following) The characters were faster though, (They had mounts near them) but choose to attack the force from an ambush position. The sorcerer attack (giving up his invisibility) as soon as possible, forgetting that those giants are pretty good ranged attackers. (They knwe that from previous encounters. All giants in my campaign have the brutal throw feat instead of sunder, which we do not use). The 2 giants stayed behind (apr. 400ft range) and hurled rocks while skurver and the ownbear charges
During this fight, the druid and sorcerer stayed behind the ranger, in cover and tried to do damage with spells. (The sorcerer rather successfull, the druid not so much) while the Goliath attacked the charging skurver from invisibility. As no one in the group came to his aid, and suddenly he and skurver blocked view to the rest of the group, all attacks (both giants and skurver) where aimed at him. Only the owlbear ignored him, and became primary target for all 3 other characters. Thus the golith fell in a single round. A simple fog cloud spell for example would have prevented the permanent hail of rocks, that was the main problem they had during this fight.

After raising the dead goliath (and agian some story development) they went back to the keep. I had done some "Nazghul" like scenze using Velikar and the Hydra before, and wanted to do so again. This would also give them the opportunity to fight the other giants in the stronghold without having to fear the chief. Who is pretty though.
Sadly, not all of them chose to stay hidden, I had no choice, but to have Velikar attack. (Actually, some of them wanted to do exactly that, attack him and his mount while doing the Nazgul thingy) Velikar is CR7, Asiroxa CR9. A pretty tough encounter. I knew that. Still, they were fully rested and we use action points. Velikar took 3 rounds of to buff himself, letting the group deal with the hydra. I had to make her fight very stuipid, or the ranger would have been down again. The Whirlwind Attacking Velikar, how charged in after his mount died, was an exercise in fudging for me. I tried to find reasons for him to move (and thus not full attacking the whole group, etc. The only "trick" they used was, summon unicorns as secondary healers.

In case you wonder: Hill Giants and Frost Giants have their CR reduced by 2 by removing some HD. (By removing 4 HD Hill Giants a bit weaker than Trolls, which are CR5)

Edit: Do they like advanced tactics used by monsters? Yes. In a way. They seem to be astonished by what is possible with the system. But they do not htink players can do that to, to them grappling or concealment are ways of cheesy DM tactics that are not really fair, but sometimes fitting for an encounter. (They liked the whirlwind attacking giant leader... but stil do not think that a player could use the same tactic to good effect)

 

[Particle_Man]

Sounds like they could use a few NPC friends to fill up the tactical holes in the party, gently suggest some ideas about said tactics, and do the stuff your players consider too boring to want to do.

At least an NPC healer type.

I think your players might be happy vs. the horde of orcs. Lots of killing and your guys stand out as giants among men.

 

[Mark CMG]

While the roleplaying part is great, the gaming aspect of D&D seems to overwhelm them.
We play D&D 3.5 together for 3 years know and I always knew about this problem, I just thought it would change when time goes by. That is obviously not the case

(. . .)

What do you think would be a good solution for my game? I do not see them investing time into learning (. . .)

One alternative is simply for you to not have them wind up in situations where true tactics are required. With some groups, combat is just about the DM-as-pinsetter. If you do it quickly and do not focus on it much, it will not hurt as bad. You could also add in some extremely obvious tactics on the part of the bad guys occasionally and see if the players pick up on them and emulate them down the road.

 

[gizmo33]

What do you think would be a good solution for my game?

Why not reduce the CR of the encounters or increase the magic items of the party?

 

[BlackMoria]

A long while back, I had a similar group that was tactically challenged. Just suboptimal decision making and poor choices. They got hammered time after time.

Finally, I had enough and spoke with them at length after one particularly brutual session about tactics and decision making. Then I deconstructed that night's encounters and showed them how alternate choices at points would have made their character's lives a whole easier.

I made a point of doing such discussions after every session from that point onwards - what went good, what went bad, what could have been done different and its likely outcome. That helped the players become more tactically savvy and to analyse their choices before rushing headlong into trouble.

In one occasion, I had to do a in-game 'intervention'. I don't remember the circumstances, it being so long ago but their plan for taking down cultists was so bad and ill conceived that it had TPK written all over it. I stood up, stated that I was going to go to the fridge for a drink and to make a sandwich and when I came back, that I wanted to see a plan that didn't require having them die to a man (my not so subtle way of saying their plan would get them all killed and to re-examine and modify their plan). They changed their plan several times but correctly identified the problems and deficiencies of the original plan and the revised plan was much better and didn't get any of their characters killed.

The group did learn from the sessions and became much better players.

 

[Obergnom]

Thanks for all tipps so far.

Some answers: Some of my players really like combat, and the other half likes to use their "cool abilities" in combet (wether thats a good idea or not)
Their main tactical problem is, I guess, not knowing D&D tactics. Again and again they just misjudge what certain things in this game are.
(Wizards do great damage using fireballs. Fighters in Full Plate are tanks that will not fall under the onslaught of all but the strongest enemies, a rogue with maxed ranks in hide can hide from nearly everything...)
It is this difference between the way they think a fantasy world should be, and the way D&D really works. (One of the best "tanks" you can have, would use trip attacks to not have his enemies use full attacks. The damage dealing wizard does not really work well etc.)
Their other problem is tactical movement. They are so afriad of AOO, most of them do not move at all... (Allthough an AOO and one charge from a hydra is better than a 6 head full attack.)
I will try to solve that. Pointing them to the class acts articels and the idea of speaking with them about fights after the fight is over seems good to me.

The short term solution will in fact be, not using tough encounters. I will try to stay in the level-2 to level+2 (for "Boss fights") range.