Vegepygmy
First Post
Fair enough. If you truly feel that "anyone should be in serious doo-doo in such situation no matter who has bound you," you should simply do away with skill checks in such situations.
Taking 20 in Use Rope - Bind a Character
- Thread starter Jon_Dahl
- Start date
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Streamy, usually your post are filled with wisdom but now I think you're dead-wrong.
Having STR 18 or more and bursting ropes is different. Unusually strong character deserves it. Maybe 1% of the human population of any campaign world can do that (no, I won't argue about that percentage).
However if you really take a good look at the "peasants vs. swineherders" example given in the OP, I wish you'd give something a bit more solid to this thread. I know you have it
And what % of normal people have a +12 or higher Escape Artist check? Because there is no rule stopping you from taking 20 on Use Rope, so a completely unskilled commoner with dex 10 using silk rope still has a 32. Why do strong characters "deserve" that? They just happen to be strong. They sure as hell didn't weight lift so they could one day shatter some rope to pieces. They did so to hit things harder. Escape artist adds dex, yes, but almost NO ONE will have dex +12! They only got there by training in escape. Lots of training. If anything, I think THEY "deserve" the easy out.
Yes but we're going from one extreme to another:
Option #1. Binder: Take 10 + dex modifier + use rope + hempen rope
vs.
Escapee: Take 20 + dex modifier + escape artist
= Higher dex modifier always wins since almost no one has ranks in use rope or escape artist (or feats that effect them).
Option #2. Binder: Take 20 + dex modifier + use rope + hempen rope
vs.
Escapee: Take 20 + dex modifier + escape artist
= You need a mid-level thief or something like that in order to escape. A trained person nonetheless.
Somehow I do like option #2. But to answer your question: Yes, people with lot of training deserve an easy way out. But I don't see that unless binders get a chance to take 20. Please see options #1 and #2 from above and hopefully you see it too.
About Strength: This is a bit hard, but at least +4 STR modifier or +12 Escape Artist mean that only special characters escape silk ropes. (Escape artist of course being the highly trained individual).
But unless you can take 20 while binding someone, then basically anyone can escape silk rope with a mere +2 escape artist modifier. I find that a bit ridicolous.
Jimlock
Adventurer
Perhaps you care to explain why?
For your convenience:
TAKING 20
When you have plenty of time—2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action—you’re faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, you should roll a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.
Taking 20 means you’re trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take.
You can’t take 20 on any check that has consequences for failure. Since taking 20 assumes that you fail many times before succeeding, you would incur the consequences before completing the task if you did take 20. Common “take 20” skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search.
OPPOSED CHECKS
An opposed check is a check whose success or failure is determined by comparing one check result to another check result. In an opposed check, the higher result succeeds, while the lower result fails. In case of a tie, the higher modifier wins. If the modifiers are the same, roll again to break the tie.
Vegepygmy
First Post
Sure. Because I find the 3.5 FAQ's logic persuasive on this subject:
f a check’s success or failure depends on another character’s opposed roll, both sides have to roll when that opposition occurs—you can’t take 20 and “save up” the maximum result. If you hide in the bushes to attack a group of orcs that will walk by later, you can’t take 20 on the Hide check, since the success or failure of your Hide check isn’t resolved until the orcs make their Spot checks. You can’t take 20 on a Use Rope check to tie someone up, since you don’t really know how successful you’ve been until that enemy tries to struggle free.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
"Your Escape Artist check is opposed by the binder’s Use Rope check. Since it’s easier to tie someone up than to escape from being tied up, the binder gets a +10 bonus on his or her check."
By the FAQ's sterling logic, you can never take 20 on Escape Artist to get out of rope bindings, either, since it's an opposed check.
"f a check’s success or failure depends on another character’s opposed roll, both sides have to roll when that opposition occurs—you can’t take 20 and “save up” the maximum result."
I guess neither side taking 20 evens things out, but so does both sides being able to do so, and is far less silly.
By the FAQ's sterling logic, you can never take 20 on Escape Artist to get out of rope bindings, either, since it's an opposed check.
"f a check’s success or failure depends on another character’s opposed roll, both sides have to roll when that opposition occurs—you can’t take 20 and “save up” the maximum result."
I guess neither side taking 20 evens things out, but so does both sides being able to do so, and is far less silly.
Well... FAQ creates a bit confusing image here I must say...
First there's an indication that you could take 20 on a spot check to "get a really good look at sneaking monsters if they stay in one place long enough" but then there's that sentence which SoTS is quoting. But anyway, that sentence is VERY clear and leaves no room for doubts. So from now on if there are any opposing rolls, "take 20" is strictly banned. I bet my players will wail from horror when they hear of this, but I will simply show them this (IMO a bit sad) piece of text straight from WotC's website.
And I do agree with you: Neither side taking 20 makes more sense and is considerably less sillier than any other option.
Trouvere
Explorer
I agree that you cannot take 20 on a Use Rope check.
I am less certain about the logic of forbidding taking 20 on an Escape Artist check. But even if you cannot, you can try, try, try again, which may well end up taking less time than taking 20. Or more.
However, I don't think anyone has yet mentioned that once you are bound, you are helpless, which gives you an effective Dex of 0 and a -5 modifier. It's not as easy to get free as you might think.
I am less certain about the logic of forbidding taking 20 on an Escape Artist check. But even if you cannot, you can try, try, try again, which may well end up taking less time than taking 20. Or more.
However, I don't think anyone has yet mentioned that once you are bound, you are helpless, which gives you an effective Dex of 0 and a -5 modifier. It's not as easy to get free as you might think.
Jimlock
Adventurer
Well played sir, I wasn't aware of that answer.
As you said it, there is logic in there. On the other hand I find it also logical that one can test his bonds to see if they are well tied and try again in case they are not... if one has the time that is.
For the record, my personal references were the SRD, Rules Compendium as well as the Crystal Keep Skill Index,
which gives Use Rope -> Retry: Yes , Take 20: Yes (DnD3.5Index-Skills_Actions.pdf, page 75). Of course, this is a non-official source, therefore I acknowledge my defeat.
Unfortunately, this proves the OP right. If the binder cannot take 20, and the bindee can, well then it is awfully easy to escape the bonds.
It means that an average binder ( Use Rope 0, Dex 10-12) who takes 10, sets a DC of 20 to 21 ...and an untrained bindee with a Dex of 10-12 brakes loose automatically. That kinda sucks.
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