Pathfinder 1E Taking 20 with Sleight of Hand

[Olfan]

Is it possible to take a 20 with the sleight of hand skill to hide a small object like a dagger on your person, assuming you're not observed and have the time? If so, would the DC to find the object be 20? Or 20+2 (assuming the dagger's bonus)? Or 20+2+SoH skill? And if not possible, why not? I've always played where you take 20 and add all the bonuses, leaving me with a dagger hidden on me with a DC in the mid 30s after a few levels, which seemed a little ridiculous.

Take 20 is restricted usually in that you assume consequences of failure, which if you're not observed and have time in nothing. But then, do you hide the object and just not know it fails? Or do you go "well that's no good a place" and try again until you succeed (take 20)?

 

[Dannorn]

Given hours to place the dagger on yourself and inspect your reflection to see how well it's hidden (how I'd assume you'd go about it) I'd say you could take 20, not sure where the +2 is coming from, but it would be 20 + SoH for your total check (and the DC for someone to spot it).

Though honestly I'd just have a player tell me where they're concealing the dagger and dictate the DC to spot it, say tucked in the back waistband under a coat would be 25 where as tucked in their boot might be 15. As opposed to them making a check, saves time as well as avoiding ridiculous mid 30 numbers like you mentioned.

Now on the flip side I'd also put penalties on you for retrieving it unnoticed since you spent so much effort to ensure it's hidden, as opposed to a take 10 which I'd see as taking the same amount of time but compromising concealment and accessibility.

 

[GX.Sigma]

From the skill description, it seems that it's something you do on the spot, like a Stealth check. The "sleight of hand" is doing it without being noticed. If you're hiding something on your person in advance, I'd just run it like normal (set a DC for how hard it is to find; have NPCs roll against that whenever it becomes relevant).

 

[Olfan]

Given hours to place the dagger on yourself and inspect your reflection to see how well it's hidden (how I'd assume you'd go about it) I'd say you could take 20, not sure where the +2 is coming from, but it would be 20 + SoH for your total check (and the DC for someone to spot it).

The +2 was from the bonus daggers get to hide as described in the skill. Primarily I used the skill to hide something like a key or dagger or the like on myself in case my character was captured and searched.

 

[GMMichael]

Take 20 is restricted usually in that you assume consequences of failure, which if you're not observed and have time in nothing. But then, do you hide the object and just not know it fails? Or do you go "well that's no good a place" and try again until you succeed (take 20)?

A PC could try to stick an object in his boot and discover that the object protrudes slightly, or just not notice the protrusion. Or stuff something under his belt, not being able to see how it bulges since it's behind him. If an ally assists in the hiding, go ahead and grant a bonus to the check. But taking 20 is not allowed.

A result of 20 means you've done the best job you can possibly do, or even got lucky and did slightly better than you can possibly do. A player really shouldn't be able to do this, to say "hey, on any given attempt, I'm just gonna do the best job I can possibly do."

Here's a good rule of thumb:

If a PC can roll 20 times to see what happens, and ignore deleterious outcomes, then he can also take 20.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I agree that this isn't an appropriate use of Take 20. Just because there isn't a penalty for failure while you're concealing the item doesn't mean there's no penalty for failure.

 

[Wolf72]

never thought about sleight of hand being dangerous ....

- I hide the dagger in my boot before the guards come around the corner

*ok, roll your check

- ... ... ... 1!

*ok, roll a d20 to see if you manage to hit yourself

- ... ... ... 20!

*again!, crit confirmation

- ... ... ... 20!!!!

*ok, if you crit again you do max damage to yourself

- ... ... ... 19!!!! :-(

*oh, it's not that bad, imagine if we were using the ICE arms law tables!

 

[MarkB]

Though honestly I'd just have a player tell me where they're concealing the dagger and dictate the DC to spot it, say tucked in the back waistband under a coat would be 25 where as tucked in their boot might be 15. As opposed to them making a check, saves time as well as avoiding ridiculous mid 30 numbers like you mentioned.

That seems like it robs the player of his character's capabilities. The player may not know better than you which hiding place will make the dagger hardest to spot, but his character with a high skill level does.

That said, I wouldn't allow Take 20 - the Take 20 mechanic basically consists of doing the same thing over and over until you get the best result, and the character won't know whether he got the best possible result until someone frisks him. Even with an ally attempting to oppose that check, he'll only know whether his attempt was good or bad - not whether it was the best.

What does seem appropriate in such a situation is a Circumstance bonus to the test, plus an Aid Another bonus from an ally using either Sleight of Hand or Search, combined with the option to take 10.

 

[Wicht]

What does seem appropriate in such a situation is a Circumstance bonus to the test, plus an Aid Another bonus from an ally using either Sleight of Hand or Search, combined with the option to take 10.

I think that's probably about right, depending on circumstances. Take 20 is definitely out and making an arbitrary DC does rob the character of the ability to do something exceptionally better as might be possible with a high Skill modifier.

If writing up an encounter, and applying a DC to finding something on a person previously hidden, I would calculate the DC to be 10 + the NPC's stealth +2 (for circumstances) and just go with that. I do this a lot for predetermining DCs for sneaking past guards (10 + Perception), or what have you, and just assuming the NPC takes 10 for their skill check saves a lot of dice rolling.

But I would not have an PC take 10 on most things, I would make them roll.

 

[delericho]

From my read of the skill description, it appears you should make the SoH check at the same time as the opposing character makes their Perception check to find the item. That being the case, you don't have the opportunity to take 20.