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D&D 5E Tasha's Drow Art and the Future of Their Depictions in D&D

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Dire Bare

Legend
There is no delimited, inferred or stated posits by myself of how anyone should propose or deal with race. I was, as stated, "in this case alone," referring tio the subject of the drow. In fact I stated that DMs should be in charge of that alone and not have it prescribed by WotC's designers AND that the idea of skin tone change was not a factor for me. I don't appreciate obfuscation of my posts and points, Further, with all due respect, I don't believe that my former friend, mentor and near surrogate father, Gary Gygax, needs to be exonerated
by anyone as if this were a mock trial
What I think @Rob Kuntz is trying to say . . . forgive me if I'm misunderstanding . . .
I guess I'm not forgiven for misunderstanding your point. Um, sorry (again)?

To be honest, I think I'm even more confused about the point you are making, other than we disagree (I think). But that's okay. Certainly, there was no intent to disparage you or Gygax.
 

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FitzTheRuke

Legend
I think it's great to imagine that Drow have many varieties of skin-tones. Some of them are that dark, almost black-purple, some of them that light grey or grey-purple, etc. Variety is the spice of life. Like in the real world and with real people in all their variety.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
That is rather questionable conclusion considering how widely the Vikings travelled and how ethnically diverse they actually were themselves. But more importantly it literally doesn't matter one bit. Nor does it matter what Gygax intended or didn't intent. What matters is how it is perceived by the audience actually playing the game today.
Only a tiny percentage of the people travelled widely. There is zero evidence that ancient norse people were prejudiced against black people.

Their feelings about the lower class thralls on the other hand were pretty horrendous by today's standards from what I've read.
 

Only a tiny percentage of the people travelled widely. There is zero evidence that ancient norse people were prejudiced against black people.

Their feelings about the lower class thralls on the other hand were pretty horrendous by today's standards from what I've read.
And none of this matters! The ancient Norse are not playing the D&D!
 


Only a tiny percentage of the people travelled widely. There is zero evidence that ancient norse people were prejudiced against black people.

Their feelings about the lower class thralls on the other hand were pretty horrendous by today's standards from what I've read.
Besides that, their conception of the underworld and their myths as later recorded in the Eddas were verbally in existence way back to their ancient beginnings which is confirmed in most folk lore and anthropological studies. This would greatly predate their later migrations by ship.
 

Then why keep bringing it up?
I didn't, you did. Like you thought that people were accusing the ancient Norse of being racist or cared whether they were.

Besides that, their conception of the underworld and their myths as later recorded in the Eddas were verbally in existence way back to their ancient beginnings which is confirmed in most folk lore and anthropological studies. This would greatly predate their later migrations by ship.
It doesn't matter!
 

I didn't, you did. Like you thought that people were accusing the ancient Norse of being racist or cared whether they were.


It doesn't matter!
Sure matters to me. It may matter to others. This is not a collective. People get to judge individually and make choices regarding internal truth or external perception. It's not all black or all white but tends towards the center as different shades of grey.
 

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
These aren't different statements.
But what @Oofta was claiming is that Norse people obviously were not racist against dark-skinned people because most of them never even met someone with such a skin tone. Sure, the individual statements are not different, but their intent and correctness in supporting the intent are. You can't be racist against a group of people that you have no awareness of, which is what @Oofta was trying to say. However, I pointed out that they indeed were aware of them. You don't need to have met someone of a certain race in order to be racist towards them, you merely have to be aware of them, which the Norse people very much were.

Now, I'm not saying that the Vikings were racist against brown/black people, I don't know whether they were or weren't, but @Oofta's insistence that they couldn't have been because a lot of them never even met someone with dark skin is just laughably false. You can be racist against black people without ever having met one, just like you can be transphobic without ever meeting a trans person. You just have to know that they exist.
 


dave2008

Legend
Now that's just identifiably false. (Source 1 and Source 2) Sure, a lot of Norse people never met anyone with dark skin, but they had terms for those people, and absolutely knew that they existed.
Actually I am sure @Oofta to is correct. The truth is very few ancient norse people left their homelands (heck that is true of most people in the world today). That some did, does not change that fact.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Publisher
But what @Oofta was claiming is that Norse people obviously were not racist against dark-skinned people because most of them never even met someone with such a skin tone. Sure, the individual statements are not different, but their intent and correctness in supporting the intent are. You can't be racist against a group of people that you have no awareness of, which is what @Oofta was trying to say. However, I pointed out that they indeed were aware of them. You don't need to have met someone of a certain race in order to be racist towards them, you merely have to be aware of them, which the Norse people very much were.

Now, I'm not saying that the Vikings were racist against brown/black people, I don't know whether they were or weren't, but @Oofta's insistence that they couldn't have been because a lot of them never even met someone with dark skin is just laughably false. You can be racist against black people without ever having met one, just like you can be transphobic without ever meeting a trans person. You just have to know that they exist.
In fact, since most bigotry is based on ignorance, it seems to be a strong correlation between bigotry and how much one spends around the demographic they are bigoted against. I.e., if the only information you're getting about a demographic is stereotypes (and often pejorative ones), then it's more likely to hold prejudice views towards that demographic when you've never actually met them.
 

In fact, since most bigotry is based on ignorance, it seems to be a strong correlation between bigotry and how much one spends around the demographic they are bigoted against. I.e., if the only information you're getting about a demographic is stereotypes (and often pejorative ones), then it's more likely to hold prejudice views towards that demographic when you've never actually met them.
I lived in the Middle East for a while, and there were some bizarre conspiracy theories about American and Israeli Jews -- even by the standards of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories -- by people who admitted they'd never met a single one.
 

Fascinating that science fiction gaming hasn’t yet been reviewed to such an extent in a similar light. Perhaps because some speculative fiction explored current socio-political issues in allegorical form? Others however are often deemed practically propaganda.

Just wondering why this current trend of scrutiny of the fantasy genre for racism isn’t also happening as fervently for sci fi. Arguably it has happened for Lovecraft, but surely it will expand to Heinlein and others eventually.
I mean, hasn't it? I don't know anyone who doesn't think Heinlein was an abusive scam artist at best and an outright Fascist and worst, and even if Heinlein himself wasn't a Fascist, Starship Troopers is certainly a fashy book. I mean back in the 90s Starship Troopers the movie came out specifically to mock the book and Heinlein's attitudes.

Meanwhile, as a Star Trek fan, we criticize Star Trek's takes on race (and gender and disability) all day long, even while loving the source material. Steve Shives makes a career out of that. I mean Let That Be Your Last Battlefield may have been revolutionary when it came out, but it is rather bothsides and victim blamey regarding racial domination. And the less said about Code of Honor, the better.

If this hasn't moved into sci-fi gaming, it's because sci-fi gaming is far, far less prominent than D&D.
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
Actually I am sure @Oofta to is correct. The truth is very few ancient norse people left their homelands (heck that is true of most people in the world today). That some did, does not change that fact.
I think history has shown that "not leaving your homeland" doesn't mean you're friendly to foreigners - usually the opposite. People like that tend to be mistrustful of people they don't know even if they look similar. They can be really unfriendly to people who look/sound strange. Again, this is not across the board but neither can you claim that one can't be racist against a people that they have not met - they can - they can literally hate anyone they have not actually met.
 

dave2008

Legend
I think history has shown that "not leaving your homeland" doesn't mean you're friendly to foreigners - usually the opposite.
I wasn't trying to suggest that and not sure why you thought I was. Nothing I said or quoted mentioned anything along those lines.
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
I wasn't trying to suggest that and not sure why you thought I was. Nothing I said or quoted mentioned anything along those lines.
It was part of the larger discussion. The part I quoted in your post was about people not leaving their homelands. If you track that back, you'll see that it was suggested that people can't be racist against people that they have not met. Either way, I wasn't implying what you thought about it one way or the other, only what I thought about it.
 


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