Telekinesis:Violent thrust to the roof or off a cliff? Does being "hurled" draw AoOs?

helium3 said:
I would either rule that you can violent thrust creatures in any direction you want (even straight up with the subsequent falling damage) or that you can't "grab hold" of living creatures with violent thrust at all under any circumstances.

I agree with this too. I would think you could 'thrust' in any direction, in a strait line. The main thing here is that you are not grabbing or controlling the target at all (no Bigby's) just pushing them. 10'/round is good, but the weight limit should keep it in check.
 

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Saeviomagy said:
It's a 5th level spell. 5th level. It's doing (level)d6 damage to a single target on a failed will save. That's pretty lame compared with other damage spells, or even the other functions of telekinesis.

[level]d6 is way too strong considering there is no energy descriptor tied to that damage. With the weapon hurl there is a limiting factor of, wizardly BaB, DR and that someone has to use [at least] an action to lay the objects out.
 
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Saeviomagy said:
It's a 5th level spell. 5th level. It's doing (level)d6 damage to a single target on a failed will save. That's pretty lame compared with other damage spells, or even the other functions of telekinesis.

Heh. See, I agree with you and allow characters in my game to do this with violent thrust. I just threw that bone in for those people that think it's too powerful.

As I understand it, the complaint about this use of the spell is that there's no counter to it other than making your save. Apparently, falling damage doesn't have a type? Course, it seems obvious to me that it's bludgeoning damage and thus subject to damage reduction. Also, an obvious counter to the spell would be a ring or potion of feather fall. So, I think that the arguments for violent thrusting someone into the air being too poweful because of a lack of effective counter measures doesn't really hold water.
 

frankthedm said:
[level]d6 is way too strong considering there is no energy descriptor tied to that damage. With the weapon hurl there is a limiting factor of, wizardly BaB, DR and that someone has to use [at least] an action to lay the objects out.

Maybe. Let's look at some comparable spells. I'm going to stick to the core and generalize at that to make things simpler.

Cone of Cold (5th level Wizard spell)
d6 / Level up to 15d6
Multiple targets within 60' of caster.
Reflex save for Half
Countered by Resist Energy (2nd Level Spell), Protection from Energy (3rd Level Spell), evasion or innate resistance to that form of energy.

Slay Living (5th level Cleric spell)
Save or die and requires a succesful touch attack.
Single target at touch range.
Fortitude save for 3d6 + 1/level
Countered by Death Ward (4th Level Spell), high touch AC or innate immunity.

Violent Thrust (5th level Wizard Spell)
d6/Level up to 20d6
Single target (25 lbs. per level, max 375 lbs.) within long range (400' + 40/level)
Will save negates
Countered by feather fall (1st level spell), fly (3rd level spell), innate immunity to falling or weighing more than 375' pounds.

Looking at comparable spells of the same level, I'd say that violent thrust is relatively comparable in terms of what it can do. I'd say that it's somewhere between the two in terms of damage output. There are a number of counters measures available. About the only quibble I can see is whether or not the damage done by the spell would be subject to damage reduction. In my campaign, I would consider falling damage to be bludgeoning damage.
 

frankthedm said:
By RAW, is it permited to send someone to the ceiling or up into the air [targeting empty space]? or do HAVE to TK someone against a object, wall, or creature?

Also would this movement draw AoOs from those who threaten the creature being Violently Thrusted by the Vrock. In effect would an ally get an attempt to grapple the creature being thrusted [adding its weight to top out the TK limit. And would the Vrock Get an AoO should It thrust the victim past it or AT it [it has got 10 points of DR, reach and combat reflexes]

I am a touch curious since my Players may soon face a Vrock in a moutainous area.

No. 3.5 seemed to take AoO from movement out of all these types of powers. PsiHBk did anyway. Those powers specifically say the creature doesn't provoke AoO from movement.
 

Mahali said:
No. 3.5 seemed to take AoO from movement out of all these types of powers. PsiHBk did anyway. Those powers specifically say the creature doesn't provoke AoO from movement.
Really?

Telekinetic Thrust
Psychokinesis
Level: Psion/wilder 3
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./ level)
Target or Targets: One or more objects or creatures with a total weight of 250 lb. or less
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates or Will negates (object); see text
Power Resistance: Yes or Yes (object); see text
Power Points: 5

You can affect one or more objects or creatures by concentrating your mind upon, sending them in a deadly hail at your foes - or simply by hurling your foe! You can hurl one object or creature per manifester level (maximum fifteen separate targets), as long as all are within the power’s range and each is no more than 10 feet away from another one. Each object or creature can be hurled a maximum distance of 10 feet per level.

You must succeed on ranged attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target of the hurled items with the items, applying your Intelligence modifier to the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier. Hurled weapons deal their standard damage (your Strength bonus does not apply; arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects deal damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds of weight (for less dangerous objects such as an empty barrel) to 1d6 points per 25 pounds of weight (for hard, dense objects such as a boulder).

Creatures are allowed Will saves (and power resistance) to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by this power.

If you use this power to hurl a creature against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points).

Augment: For every additional power point you spend, the weight limit of the target or targets increases by 25 pounds.
 


Felix said:
Frank, you really are a dabbler in Thread Necromancy. I mean, responding 17 months later?
You can call it necromancy if you wish, but the subject of pulling and hurling foes and if that counts as 'movement' for AoOs has come back up again in the improved grab thread.

The host of my gaming group feels a TK: Violent thrust happens too quickly for a foe to take an AoO on. I feel that is a reasonable stance, but enjoy discusions on these minute details of the ruleset.
 

I think the RAW is pretty clear on this. If you get moved in a way to provoke AOOs, you provoke an AOO. It doesn't matter if your falling, get bullrushed, magical pushed, or are flying on a rocket, you take an AOO.
 

Stalker0 said:
I think the RAW is pretty clear on this. If you get moved in a way to provoke AOOs, you provoke an AOO. It doesn't matter if your falling, get bullrushed, magical pushed, or are flying on a rocket, you take an AOO.
I'd love a quote for Hurling/ Falling/Pulled = game term of Movement. Bull rush calls itself out as casuing AoOs to be drawn & bull rushing is forcing one's movement onto another. I've even seen arguments a freedom of movement spell would still lets a web catch you mid plummet because of the distinction between falling and movement. [sblock=Move]
The simplest move action is moving your speed. If you take this kind of move action during your turn, you can’t also take a 5-foot step.

Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category, including climbing (up to one-quarter of your speed) and swimming (up to one-quarter of your speed).

Accelerated Climbing
You can climb one-half your speed as a move action by accepting a -5 penalty on your Climb check.

Crawling
You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl. [/sblock]

[sblock=Moving]
Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action. [/sblock][sblock=Movement]
Tactical Movement
Use tactical movement for combat. Characters generally don’t walk during combat—they hustle or run. A character who moves his or her speed and takes some action is hustling for about half the round and doing something else the other half.

Hampered Movement
Difficult terrain, obstacles, or poor visibility can hamper movement. When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move.

If more than one condition applies, multiply together all additional costs that apply. (This is a specific exception to the normal rule for doubling)

In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don’t have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (1 square). In such a case, you may use a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it’s not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally. (You can’t take advantage of this rule to move through impassable terrain or to move when all movement is prohibited to you.)

You can’t run or charge through any square that would hamper your movement[/sblock]

And if all forms of a character being bounced around drew AoO's, I'd think Awesome blow would have had reminder text for the creature to take its AoO when it sends the victim flying with awsome blow.
[sblock=Awesome Blow] [General, Fighter]
Prerequisites
Str 25, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, size Large or larger.

Benefit
As a standard action, the creature may choose to subtract 4 from its melee attack roll and deliver an awesome blow. If the creature hits a corporeal opponent smaller than itself with an awesome blow, its opponent must succeed on a Reflex save (DC = damage dealt) or be knocked flying 10 feet in a direction of the attacking creature’s choice and fall prone. The attacking creature can only push the opponent in a straight line, and the opponent can’t move closer to the attacking creature than the square it started in. If an obstacle prevents the completion of the opponent’s move, the opponent and the obstacle each take 1d6 points of damage, and the opponent stops in the space adjacent to the obstacle. [/sblock]
 

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