Telekinesis:Violent thrust to the roof or off a cliff? Does being "hurled" draw AoOs?

[KarinsDad]

I originally thought like most others here, but I have changed my mind on how to interpret this.


Take for example a moving ship. We can "assign" the squares to the deck of the ship and not really care that the ship is moving.

But what happens if the ship violently changes direction or stops (which btw, this exact scenario has happened a few times in our games)?

Do the squares move with the creatures? Do the squares stay put and move with the ship? Do the creatures move? What happens?

From what I can tell, there is no "momentum" per se in the game. So, if the ship moves to the right, the creatures stay on their squares and move with it (option a). If the DM adds momentum to the game (option b), the creatures then change squares.


Now, add on to this scenario that some of the creatures are flying.

If you use option a, the flying creatures should not be affect by the movement of the ship. They are not touching the ship. Hence, the ship and its squares move to the right and the flying creatures should stay put.

So, do you give AoOs for the non-flying creatures against the flying creatures (because the flying creatures are no longer in the same squares), or do you give AoOs for the flying creatures against the non-flying creatures (because the non-flying creatures moved away from the flying creatures due to the ship "moving them"). From the perspective of each creature, the other movement type creatures are moving away.

Neither creature initiated this "movement".


If you use option b, both the flying creatures and the non-flying creatures are moving out of their "squares". The flying creatures because the squares of the ship moved under them and the non-flying creatures due to their momentum. Hence, the flying creatures should provoke AoOs by the non-flying creatures and vice versa. Again, from the perspective of each creature, the other movement type creatures are moving away.

Except, the flying creatures did not move. Why are they penalized if they did not move?


Because of these types of issues, I have taken a more restrictive interpretation of the word "Moving" in the AoO rules to mean "the creature uses a move (or full) action to move".

Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent.

Another way of viewing this is in violent external movement situations, the target is not dropping his guard and he is moving too fast to be AoOed. He is not slowly being moved because he is being pushed on moving on his own, he is being "propelled" from his square.


Note: Bullrushed creatures would still provoke AoOs, but that is a rule of Bullrush. That is not a generic "if someone gets moved" rule.

 

[Stalker0]

And if all forms of a character being bounced around drew AoO's, I'd think Awesome blow would have had reminder text for the creature to take its AoO when it sends the victim flying with awsome blow.

There are plenty of places in the rules I would like the book to be clearer on, give little reminder text too, etc. Enough of that, and we wouldn't need a rules forum

As for Awesome blow, I think its just like the other movements, it provokes an AOO.

 

[Thanee]

Got another quote for you to compare, this time from Complete Arcane:

Movement from this blast does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

It's certainly a comparable situation.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nail]

That is not a generic "if someone gets moved" rule.

Actually, the AoO rule for movement is generic:

Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot-step and the withdraw action (see below).

Note it just says "moving"...it doesn't say: "If you use a move action to move...."

Do you move when being Telekinesed? Yep. Do you provoke AoOs? Yep, 'cause you moved.

 

[frankthedm]

Actually, the AoO rule for movement is generic:



Note it just says "moving"...it doesn't say: "If you use a move action to move...."

Do you move when being Telekinesed? Yep. Do you provoke AoOs? Yep, 'cause you moved.

Depends if movement is being used as a game term or not. TK and other "movement" forcing abilties like awsome blow have plenty of potency without this...

 

[KarinsDad]

Note it just says "moving"...it doesn't say: "If you use a move action to move...."

Do you move when being Telekinesed? Yep. Do you provoke AoOs? Yep, 'cause you moved.

Says you.

I say that the word Moving means that you have to actually do it yourself.

I say that the word Moving does not mean Externally Moved.


You'll note that TK, Awesome Blow, and other "external movement" rules never mention AoOs.

I consider this debatable and similar to the Cleave on AoO discussion where NPC2 takes an AoO when NPC1 moves, provokes, and gets killed.


In any case, if you take the ship example, who moved out of their squares? The PCs that turned with the ship, or the flying creatures that stayed still?

 

[Stalker0]

Says you.

I say that the word Moving means that you have to actually do it yourself.

I say that the word Moving does not mean Externally Moved.

If that was true, then why is it that the movement from a bull rush does provoke AOOs?

 

[frankthedm]

If that was true, then why is it that the movement from a bull rush does provoke AOOs?

It could be because bull rush specifies AoOs are drawn.

 

[KarinsDad]

If that was true, then why is it that the movement from a bull rush does provoke AOOs?

Because Bullrush explicitly calls this out.


I view normal movement (including Bullrush) as slow movement (even running).

I view TK or Awesome Blow or a violent ship or Repelling Blast (or the Explosive Knockback metamagic feat from Complete Arcane, I forget the name of it) movement as blindingly fast movement. The creature is not lowering his guard in any way, he just is being quickly propelled out of his square. He is not moving, he is being moved.

AoO states:

Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down.

I do not think in these cases that the combatant has time to lower his guard, nor does his opponents have time to react to this. Course, this could be construed as a house rule, I just think reading Moving as doing it yourself is not too unreasonable just as an interpretation.

From a rules perspective, it is also an easy rule to remember and implement.

 

[Dracorat]

If that was true, then why is it that the movement from a bull rush does provoke AOOs?

Because it says so.

And the rules state that AoO is provoked during a move action.