Teleportation overcomes tripping?

[Hassassin]

You appear at the exact place and rotation you intended to. What direction you fall in is a completely different question.

But you normally can't teleport to the ceiling:

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

Otherwise you could e.g. Divert Teleport someone to take a 100' fall if the ceiling's that high.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

But you normally can't teleport to the ceiling:

I would argue that the ceiling of a room under the affect of a reverse gravity fulfills the qualifications of "a surface capable of supporting it", but that the floor does not.

 

[Vegepygmy]

And the conjuration school in general notes: "A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."

So where does it say you can rotate while teleporting? I see nothing indicating that in the magic overview section. I think the "drop down and make a check" argument is just plain wrong by RAW, citing the above.

The RAW you cite would apply (as written) only in cases where a creature or object is teleported to your location, not in cases where you yourself are teleporting to some other place.

Nevertheless, I would still rule that the teleporter remains prone.

 

[kitcik]

On Star Trek, any time on a person is teleported to a location that is not directly below the Enterprise, they are rotated in some way. The curvature of the planet requires it (see my post above). Otherwise, they would land lying down, upside down, or on an angle. Likewise, any teleportation from one ship to another requires rotation (unless there is some magical force holding the ship to be perfectly planar to each other).

OTOH, in Star Trek, the position of the person's arms, legs, etc, in relation to the rest of their body remains constant. I don't know the name of the episode, but I specifically remember an episode of TNG where they teleport a mountain climber aboard (thinking he is in trouble), and he comes through in the exact position he was climbing it.

So, if you want to imaging D+D teleportation to match ST teleportation, it could rotate the character from prone to upright, then require a balance check to stay standing from the instant gravity change.



You appear at the exact place and rotation you intended to. What direction you fall in is a completely different question.

I don't think this is a valid argument and I don't think the person is "rotated" at all.

They arrive in the same relative position to the surface that they left. The teleportation device / spell does not distinguish between up / down / left /right --> it only disinguishes relative position to surface. So, in the Trek example, if you transport to a planet "below" you or "above" you, you stil end up on your feet; but, if you are lying down when transported, you are still lying down when you arrive. This was true in all cases I remember (such as the mountain climber).

I think that given RAW requires you to end up on a surface capable of supporting you and nowhere does it say it allows you to change position, the only logical conclusion is this. Otherwise, if you can end up in any position you want, I believe abuses could be conceived. Therefore, prone is still prone.

 

[Dandu]

OTOH, in Star Trek, the position of the person's arms, legs, etc, in relation to the rest of their body remains constant. I don't know the name of the episode, but I specifically remember an episode of TNG where they teleport a mountain climber aboard (thinking he is in trouble), and he comes through in the exact position he was climbing it.

Star Trek The Next Generation season 7 episode 22.

It's the episode where Daimon Bok (minor antagonist from season 1) manipulates the DNA of the child of one of Captain Picard's ex-lover's children in an attempt to convince him that the boy was his, so that Bok could then kill the child and inflict on Picard the same anguish that Picard caused him by killing Bok's son by mistake at Maxia.

 

[Wyvernhand]

There are three schools of thought I've seen WRT teleport, relative position vs absolute position, and momentum conservation.

1) Relative momentum and position are conserved. If you were falling when you teleported, your falling distance prior to teleporting is conserved, and when you land, you take the sum of pre-teleport + post teleport damage. Likewise, if you were prone when you teleport, you are prone after teleporting.

2) Absolute momentum and position are conserved. This one gets wonky. It means that like StreamsoftheSky mentioned, if you teleport to the other side of the planet, you'll both be upside down and suffer issues due to the fact that while your angular momentum remains the same, your absolute velocity is what it was on the other side of the earth, including direction, which may fling you backwards, skywards, or groundwards with incredible force (dependant on the size of the planet and its spin velocity). Physics, don't teleport without it!

3) Its magic beeches! You can do whatever you want because while you are travelling astrally from your old position to your new position (instantaneously), you can change your position, momentum, and posture. You arive exactly where you want under the exact conditions you want because magic is just freakin sweet like that.

I tend to like the 3rd. Given that teleportation more or less works by transporting you briefly to the Astral Plane and then back to the Prime, and that while you are Astral, you move via the power of thought, you can "think" yourself into whatever position or momentum or whatever before you blink back into the Prime.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

It means that like StreamsoftheSky mentioned, if you teleport to the other side of the planet, you'll both be upside down and suffer issues due to the fact that while your angular momentum remains the same, your absolute velocity is what it was on the other side of the earth, including direction, which may fling you backwards, skywards, or groundwards with incredible force (dependant on the size of the planet and its spin velocity). Physics, don't teleport without it!

I wasn't the one that mentioned that.

I tend to like the 3rd. Given that teleportation more or less works by transporting you briefly to the Astral Plane and then back to the Prime, and that while you are Astral, you move via the power of thought, you can "think" yourself into whatever position or momentum or whatever before you blink back into the Prime.

And you don't mind that this means even extremely low level, inexpensive forms of teleportation can overcome prone and potentially other problems? Benign Transposition is a level 1 spell with no real use for CL (ie, great on wands). Anklets of Translocation are a swift action 10 ft teleport 2/day for like 1400 gp each.

 

[Wyvernhand]

I played in a Red Hand of Doom game where it was allowed for characters to "teleport to standing". We were all playing martial adept characters or other characters who highly value their swift actions. Is teleporting to standing worth not refreshing your Warblade manevuers? Is attacking from prone while initiating Burning Blade going to deal more damage than teleporting to standing and not intitating Burning Blade? Is it worth more than a Swift X Spell? Or even possible because you used an immediate action last round? Activate the Anklets? Or the Heartseeking Amulet? Or the Greatreach Bracers? Or the Gloves of Fortunate Striking? And is it worth it to do it now, making you unable to teleport 10' into flanking so you get Sneak Attack in combat 2, or unable to teleport past the locked gate to get inside and unlock it in encounter 4?

No, our DM had NO problem with us doing that. If you play a non-ToB martial character who has no use for his swift action, then the opportunity cost is negligable other than using it later in the day. If you are playing with martial adepts, factotums, casters, or make extensive use of the MIC, you start running into the issue of having lots of options and having to weigh those options against one another creates an element of strategy and resource management that I personally think make the game more interesting.

There are 20 potential opening moves for chess. Some of them are going to help you win, and some of them aren't. Figuring out which move to make when is part of the fun of the game. Same thing for D&D. No matter how many options you have to occupy Action X, you still only have one Action X, and what you do with that action makes a huge difference. So you spend your swift action and a charge on a magic item to stand up...thats a swift action you aren't spending doing something potentially much stronger.

EDIT: Also, my bad. It was Deset Gled that first mentioned it. Brain no worky after I do hot yoga. All I can think is "EXHAUSTED", and sometimes "FOOD".

EDIT EDIT: Also, standing up against a dedicated tripper isn't generally going to accomplish much. He's just gonna trip you again next round, and with Improved Trip, he won't even miss a beat doing it...literally. Also, there are a number of ways to stand up from prone as a swift action which won't provoke an AoO. IIRC, there is a feat, a skill trick, and a simple alternative skill useage that all allow you to stand up from prone as a swift or free action. Allowing a somewhat cheap magic item to do so a couple times a day is hardly the most blindingly amazing thing anyone has ever come up with.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

IIRC, there is a feat, a skill trick, and a simple alternative skill useage that all allow you to stand up from prone as a swift or free action.

There are two skill tricks that require something like 8 and 12 ranks, respectively. One to do it as a swift, another as an immediate, each without provoking and once/encounter as with all skill tricks. DC 35 tumble check to "Free Stand" makes it a free action but still provokes. Feat...is probably Combat Acrobat from PHB2, unless you were thinking of something else. Requires a hefty 9 balance ranks, 4 more than most are willing to spend.

So yes, there are options. All require a decent investment and at least mid levels to obtain.

Allowing a somewhat cheap magic item to do so a couple times a day is hardly the most blindingly amazing thing anyone has ever come up with.

I agree, I just disagree on what that item should be. Flip open that MIC you kept referencing items from to Boots of Agile Leaping. 600 gp. Hell, pay +50% to add it to striding and springing. Problem solved. You're welcome. No need to give teleportation added benefits.

 

[Wyvernhand]

The feat I was thinking of was Kipup, but I don't think it was reprinted in a 3.5 source.

And again, opportunity cost. If you burn all of your charges on your Anklets of Translocation to stand up from prone, you won't have charges to spend at a later point. Also, at low levels you can't afford to spend money to ADD Anklets (or Boots of Agile Leaping) to other strong boots, like Steadfast Boots, and at the higher levels you'll have a host of other abilities and items that are competing for action costs.

A Wand of Benign Transposition would be even less advantageous to have. It would require either spellcasting (or UMD), a standard action, and a friend who is willing to swap places with you. Good? Sure, situationally. Great? Probably not.

I also like the idea of using Anklets of Translocation to teleport the last 10' of a fall, avoiding the damage. If your momentum isn't conserved when you go astral (since there is no momentum on the astral plane, only the power of thought), you SHOULD appear on the ground no worse off for the distance you fell to get there. Again, if you use all your charges to jump down mine shafts, you won't have charges to use in combat, and the boots don't provide any way to climb back out!

Again, this is my personal opinion gathered from real gaming experience. I don't see any problem at all with allowing magic to do this. It is magic, afterall. Its not that strong of an option, either, given its availability, and it'll generally inhibit other actions thus creating a healthy opportunity cost which is good for the game.