D&D 5E Tell me about 5E at 11th level

[Aquion]

If you are running anything at a Con in the CT area, please let me know.

 

[ccs]

Beyond multiclassing, many melee fighters will tend to make use of "cheese" to beat fights. Examples include Polearm Mastery/Sentinel, Booming Blade/Dissonant Whispers, or ridiculous AC boosting.

You say the game plays well for optimized characters at this lv - but then disparage the melee fighters for optimizing??

 

[Tigerzak21]

I see it that the combinations available to melee warriors or gish characters tend to skew their effectiveness in one way or another. The UA tunnel fighter style, polearm master, sentinel, great weapon master, and great weapon fighting style can be gotten in 10 levels with a champion fighter. When they get a third attack at level 12 they then can make 3 attacks at reach, rerolling 1's and 2's once each, potentially with a -5/+10 to hit/damage, then backing away and entering tunnel fighting stance as a bonus action to acquire multiple attacks of opportunity from sentinel and polearm master.

Sure, a wizard can cast a few big spells per day, but at this level the martial classes csn also get some.surprising always-on combinations or sirvoval features.

 

[Quartz]

On paper at least the Battlemaster comes into her own, being able to retain the second attack and use a manoever.

 

[ThirdWizard]

In your estimation, is the CR system reliable at that level (or at least as reliable as it is at any level)? In other words, can I build XP budgets into encounters for 8 PCs and have them be reasonably challenging and balanced?

Another thing is that even at 6th-7th, PCs are notoriously hard to kill. I am guessing by 11th it is all but impossible aside from save-or-die effects. if that is the case, how do you build tension into combat encounters?

My game is 10th level, but so far I've found that in some cases, I have to dip pretty deeply into the Deadly spectrum to actually challenge them. My last game consisted of the following encounters (no short resting between):

• 5 spined devils @ 975 XP (no challenge in play)
• Deva + 2 Chain Devils @ 3,425 XP (pretty easy, no one was in danger)
• 2 Young Red Dragons ridden by 2 Barbed Devils @ 3,850 XP (fairly tense battle)
• Horned Devil + Cambion + 2 Wyverns @ 3,400 XP (somewhat tense battle)

This is a party of 4 consisting of a Dragonborn Oath Paladin, a Light Cleric, a Wild Sorcerer, and a Fiend/Book Warlock.

The fact that they can take on such deadly encounters so easily is due to 2 main factors. Those monsters were almost all affected by Protection from Evil/Circle of Evil, and Hold Person + Paladin Smite is incredibly effective (used in dragon encounter, used to kill a beholder without it getting a single action earlier). So, CR/XP encounter building can be very very swingy depending on what is being fought, what spell capabilities the PCs have, and what tactics they can employ. Protection from Evil can change the dynamic of play, for example, so it's a good idea to keep enemy types in mind when building encounters, and watch out for spells like Hold Person.

 

[ehenning]

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The fact that they can take on such deadly encounters so easily is due to 2 main factors. Those monsters were almost all affected by Protection from Evil/Circle of Evil, and Hold Person + Paladin Smite is incredibly effective (used in dragon encounter, used to kill a beholder without it getting a single action earlier). So, CR/XP encounter building can be very very swingy depending on what is being fought, what spell capabilities the PCs have, and what tactics they can employ. Protection from Evil can change the dynamic of play, for example, so it's a good idea to keep enemy types in mind when building encounters, and watch out for spells like Hold Person.

How are you using Hold Person here? On what enemies? I'm curious.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Every year I build a sandbox for play at conventions and for next year I am considering going a little higher level (11th) than what I have in the past (5th-7th).

5-7 sounds like a better idea, closer to the traditional sweet spot at which D&D has been most functional. I can say from personal experience running 5e that it's definitely not at it's best at 1st level, and swiftly improves. By 5th there's none of the problems you saw at 1st. On the upper edge, I'd only be speaking theoretically. The past editions 5e most strongly resembles philosophically and mechanically - AD&D and 3.x - never worked well at high level, so there's little reason to expect 5e to. At 11th, though, the fighter does get his extra attack and the barbarian his relentless rage, so they're kinda peaking in a sense.

 

[ThirdWizard]

How are you using Hold Person here? On what enemies? I'm curious.

Apologies, Hold Monster which they got at 9th level.

 

[Zardnaar]

The game starts to break around this level as ability scores are creeping towards 20 and feat combos come online. And spell combos/class ability combos also come online along with 3rd attacks for fighter types. You can also start using CR18-20 critters on them as solo type bosses. With power gamers things ten to start going wrong around level 8, things start to break at 11. By power gamers I mean anyone who can figure out things like Greater Invisibility is a good spell or Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter are good feats not power gamers who can craft the perfect PC.

Swarms of mooks also do not tend to work so well with things like Destructive Wave turning up around level 9 or 10.

 

[feartheminotaur]

I have one game at 12th (from 1st) and one at 16th (from 2nd) and have played several high level one-offs at the FLGS and on Roll20.

My thoughts:

1. ABC - Always Be Combo-ing: Players have developed sets of action combos and most fights will generally feature them no matter the opponent. Not cheesy, just at 12th+ level, you know what works together (for both PC and party) and what doesn't. Access to feats accelerates this since a lot of combos (especially melee) are feat based.

2. PC power is ridiculous versus the DMG/MM XP guide: I'm not sure if it's due to the desire by the designers to balance encounters in the 'most common levels' sweet spot or what, but once we hit 11th level, "deadly" was decidedly inaccurate. You'll have to rely on more than a monster's CR to challenge PCs (tactics, terrain, type, etc.). We hardly got scratched playing the higher levels of Out of the Abyss (lots of the NPCs died though...)

3. Magic items are hard to predict, especially in an open ended sandbox-y world. Rarity is not a great indicator of relative power - you'll want to think about an item before handing it out. Examples: Table G has +1 armor and +2 weapons; hardly game changing. It also has the mantle of spell resistance which gives Adv on saves vs spells. Doesn't seem like much when you read it, but, in actual play, it made the rogue wearing it essentially immune to spell effects. So, if you planned on prominently feature an evil wizard cabal as a BBEG...makes a big difference vs a simple longsword +2

4. The "work day" concept is useless. Players have magic that allows them to take a rest of any kind whenever they want. I'd never advocate punishing them for having that magic, but you'll have to keep that in mind when designing challenges - they can, if they decide, blow all their resources in one go and hole up in a magnificent mansion or the like.

5. The world gets much, much smaller. Any sandbox you build will need to be bigger and more detailed. Players can wind walk and teleport with greater success. They have access to better and more accurate divination spells, and their overall knowledge of the world - everything from types of creatures available for shape changing to the more important movers and shakers across kingdoms and planes - is greater then a 5th -7th level party's.