Tell me about Savage Worlds

[AngryMojo]

And as long as you mentioned spellcasting, let's talk about the magic system, which is evidently designed for those people who disliked all the flexibility and options in 4E. You start off with three incredibly generic weak powers, along the lines of "magic missile that's not as good as a handgun", or "magic mail armor" You are then stuck with those three powers for the next however many game sessions until you can buy a new power. Joy. Admittedly I'm biased in that I usually like to play mages, but if my character is going to be restricted to being magical field artillery, he should at least be effective artillery.

Umm, the bolt power is exceptionally powerful. Exceptionally. If you dump everything into it and go nova, it's absurd how much of a hurting you can lay down with it. More damage than a handgun (3d6 for the spell as opposed to 2d6 for the gun) with more shots (3 as opposed to 1, with no automatic fire penalty). In addition, most settings with both magic and guns rely on black powder instead of automatics, and magic very clearly wins out in this regard.

Besides, Boost/Lower Trait is quite possibly the best power in the game anyway, and hardly restricts you to the blaster archetype.

But at least I'm not as bad off as the poor sod who decides to play a mad scientist.

I know quite a few mad scientists who would beg to differ there.

 

[amerigoV]

Well, before it becomes a pissing match, lets be direct. SW is NOT D&D. It is not a D&D clone like Pathfinder and C&C (and any other retroclone). Therefore, it is not trying to clone the D&D experience. It has its own goals and experience.

D&D has evolved into its own form of fantasy genre (which, of course, even the D&D people can not agree on what system works best for it). "D&D Fantasy" is not SW sweet spot. It can run it nicely and I have run/am running/am playing in D&Dish campaigns using SW. It gives Fast Furious and Fun but it does sacrifice some of the deep crunch of D&D (of 3e and on, of course). There are subtle things about the system that one has to keep in mind to make it work, and it does not always come off "as D&D." On the other hand, if you just cannot wait for the next book of player/PC options, then D&D is for you and SW is not.

SW does handle what I would call "source fantasy" very well. You look back to the Conan books, or Fahrd and the Grey Mouser, and even Lord of the Rings and SW will shine. Conan crushes hordes of "regular mortals" (ie, extras) then has a tough fight (either physically or has to think his way through) at the end - Wild Cards, and it can be "swingy" so planning is warranted. F & GM is easily supported by the social skills and the hindrances the help roleplaying. LoTR is a group of non-combatants (but brave) mixed in with great warriors. The hobbits always found a way to be useful in combat. That is perfect SW - Agility/Smarts tricks and Test of Wills.

If your group is hard core D&D fantasy, then play D&D. Nothing else will scratch that itch. But if you group is more like mine - a couple of powergamers, a storyteller, and a couple that just show up on game night, then SW does a good job covering that spread. SW was built for us old folks that have family, work, and little gaming time.

If you want to try out some different genres, then SW gives a great framework to try things out without having to learn a new set of rules. In the last 2 years I have played/run modern horror, Weird War II, Viet Nam, Rippers (see below), Supers, 1930s pulp, and fantasy (including a Ravenloft campaign). If you want to play fanatsy but with more twists, then SW has some nice options (Iron Dynasty - Fantasy in oriental setting with some steampunk thrown in, Sundered Skies - world blew up). Even better is if you want to mash together genres - supers and WWII (Captain America...), Fantasy and Steampunk, Supers and Rippers (Rippers is Van Helsing era stuff).

It cannot do everything D&D does, but D&D cannot do everything the SW does either.

 

[Mallus]

I know quite a few mad scientists who would beg to differ there.

I'm no expert on Savage Worlds, having played all of three sessions of it before our GM got called out of of town, but I've had no trouble with a Weird Science-using character in our Slipstream campaign. She's great... if more than a little mad. She just picked up the Chemist Edge, and is now spending all her time manufacturing highly addictive "medicines".

Our group's general consensus, so far, is it's a great system for the high-action, wacky-characterization,play style we prefer.

 

[Rel]

Probably my favorite thing about SW is how it engages my creativity with how flexible the trappings for powers are. In the game I'm running now one player wanted to play a werewolf. We've managed to accommodate that by him taking just the Natural Weapons edge as well as Boost Trait power with a couple modifications. Minimal complication and maximum flavor!

 

[amerigoV]

I know quite a few mad scientists who would beg to differ there.

Yep, if you have a player that likes to run "something different" - you hand them the weird scientist PC. Tons of fun for that person. From the GM side of the screen, I can say that Weird Scientists are not disadvantaged in any way. Every time they take the Power Points Edge, ALL of their gizmos bump up 5PPs. So they start with 1 or 2 powers less, but every gizmo has the PC's maximum PPs. That ramps up fast. Unless they string together a bunch of 1's, they always have something they can do.

Heck, in my Castle Greyhawk game the Mad Scientist had a one giant smashing the crap out of another with his mind control ray - not fair I say! What's a mad scientist doing in Greyhawk you might ask? Well, being Mad of course!

 

[Agamon]

It cannot do everything D&D does, but D&D cannot do everything the SW does either.

I gots to spread around the +1s, so here's me agreeing wholeheartedly with this post.

 

[Eric Tolle]

Savage Worlds characters do not start as strong as beginning 4E characters.

The impression I got is that they're generally either weaker or more specialized than most beginning D&D characters, more akin to beginning Runequest characters. Of course D&D mages can swap out spells and learn new ones easily, and Runequest characters can learn as many spells as they have money to buy. Savage Worlds characters are stuck with three generic combat powers, until they spend an edge to get another power. On the other hand, no spellbooks, and mystic tomes of ancient knowledge mean nothing ro them. They can't even swap out their old powers. That doesn't say "mage" to me, more like "magic-themed inor villain from a superhero comic".

I'm thinking a starting Wizard in Savage Worlds is not analogous to a 4E wizard, but to the wizard in earlier editions of D&D. 4E characters start out as heroes, so why would you compare them to novices?

Well, I tried duplicating my AD&D wizard, but no dic. Dynadin may have been limited in the spells he could cast at one time, but he knew a half dozen, and quickly learned more. I tried duplicating my Mage character- heh, no I didn't even try the travesty of turning my Forces-bending, spirit-binding Hermetic into a Savage Worlds gun with legs.

Umm, the bolt power is exceptionally powerful. Exceptionally. If you dump everything into it and go nova, it's absurd how much of a hurting you can lay down with it.

OK, it's a big gun with automatic fire. That you can unload on a target once, unless you spend an edge on extra charges, instead of learning a new power. It's still a gun.

None of which changes the fact that mages in Savage Works are just walking guns, with the least flexibility of any mages from any magic system I've read or played. The only way casting the same three generic powers game after game could be more boring to me is if I had a single gadget to use game after game.

If there's going to be a magic system in a game, I want it to be flexible, and also at least make the attempt to evoke something mystical, not just be a guy wandering around with a few random unchanging powers. Jaws of the Six Artifacts, with it's powerful, infinitely flexible, yet hazardous magic is perfectly evocative of the Sword and Sorcery hebrew; Swashbucklers of the Seven Skies has its mystical elemental magic, and of course there's Ars Magica, Mage, Amber, and even True20. Hell even 4E tries, with rituals. But Savage Worlds manages to be both inflexible and flavorless.

 

[amerigoV]

None of which changes the fact that mages in Savage Works are just walking guns, with the least flexibility of any mages from any magic system I've read or played. The only way casting the same three generic powers game after game could be more boring to me is if I had a single gadget to use game after game.
...
If there's going to be a magic system in a game, I want it to be flexible, and also at least make the attempt to evoke something mystical, not just be a guy wandering around with a few random unchanging powers. Jaws of the Six Artifacts, with it's powerful, infinitely flexible, yet hazardous magic is perfectly evocative of the Sword and Sorcery hebrew; Swashbucklers of the Seven Skies has its mystical elemental magic, and of course there's Ars Magica, Mage, Amber, and even True20. Hell even 4E tries, with rituals. But Savage Worlds manages to be both inflexible and flavorless.

Well, it sounds like you have found other systems you like. I (and other SW supporters) have found it to be immensely flexiable and favorful, which has not been your experience (which seems to focus all other system aspects to a starting Arcane character under SW). I'll leave you to go back to your magic missiles.

 

[nnms]

The impression I got is that they're generally either weaker or more specialized than most beginning D&D characters, more akin to beginning Runequest characters.

I think that's a fair assessment.

Of course D&D mages can swap out spells and learn new ones easily,

Starting 4E characters might. Also to a lesser extent with 3.x. But earlier editions definitely can't have that same range of magic choices. How about clerics that start at level 1 and have no divine spells like in Basic D&D?

Savage Worlds characters are stuck with three generic combat powers, until they spend an edge to get another power.

There are tons of non-combat applications for the powers in Savage Worlds. For example, that thief-mage I mentioned who walked on walls and read minds.

On the other hand, no spellbooks, and mystic tomes of ancient knowledge mean nothing ro them. They can't even swap out their old powers. That doesn't say "mage" to me, more like "magic-themed inor villain from a superhero comic".

Again, I think you're expecting heroic level mages from the novice level of Savage Worlds. Why don't you make a seasoned or heroic savage world character and then compare like to like?

Well, I tried duplicating my AD&D wizard, but no dic. Dynadin may have been limited in the spells he could cast at one time, but he knew a half dozen, and quickly learned more.

Learning more in AD&D depended on the DM. It was very, very easy for a DM to have little or no access to spells to be learned and inscribed into spellbooks.

I tried duplicating my Mage character- heh, no I didn't even try the travesty of turning my Forces-bending, spirit-binding Hermetic into a Savage Worlds gun with legs.

LOL. You expect Savage Worlds system to be able to replicate the magic system of a game that is all about magic and making up spell effects on the fly? And then bash the game for not succeeding? How many pages does Mage spend on their magic system? And you expect Savage Worlds to have an equally developed magic system in the little explorer book?

None of which changes the fact that mages in Savage Works are just walking guns,

So the thief mage without any means of doing damage with magic was "just a gun"?

with the least flexibility of any mages from any magic system I've read or played. The only way casting the same three generic powers game after game could be more boring to me is if I had a single gadget to use game after game.

I played a Harn game once (I think it was Harn) where the only magic I could do was glow bright light, levitate and deciphre languages I didn't know. I was able to accomplish so much with that. Flexibility is in the player, not the powers.

If there's going to be a magic system in a game, I want it to be flexible, and also at least make the attempt to evoke something mystical, not just be a guy wandering around with a few random unchanging powers. Jaws of the Six Artifacts, with it's powerful, infinitely flexible, yet hazardous magic is perfectly evocative of the Sword and Sorcery hebrew; Swashbucklers of the Seven Skies has its mystical elemental magic, and of course there's Ars Magica, Mage, Amber, and even True20. Hell even 4E tries, with rituals. But Savage Worlds manages to be both inflexible and flavorless.

Yep, there are games that spend a lot more text on magic rules than Savage Worlds and thus have more options. But are you sure your charge of inflexibility and the painting of a caricature of mages just being "just a gun" is accurate? It's okay for you to like magic systems that give you more options and options that you can swap in and out. But you're being a bit ridiculous in your caricature of the Savage Worlds power systems.

Savage Worlds can handle the same thing with a few Setting Rules to provide that flexibility. Remember Setting Rules, where you sit down and add rules to customize the universal rules of Savage Worlds to your setting? Take AD&D for example, what about a Setting Rule where you can cast three Powers but you choose half a dozen and each morning pick three of them?

When the Savage Worlds rules don't exactly give the right feel for your setting, you're supposed to apply patches. It's really the only way that universal rules can run anything. Look at GURPS. How many books full of setting specific rules add ons did they publish? Hundreds. Fortunately PEG hasn't gone down the supplement treadmill road like that. Instead, Setting Rules are easier to come up with and apply.

 

[Greg K]

Savage Worlds can handle the same thing with a few Setting Rules to provide that flexibility. Remember Setting Rules, where you sit down and add rules to customize the universal rules of Savage Worlds to your setting? Take AD&D for example, what about a Setting Rule where you can cast three Powers but you choose half a dozen and each morning pick three of them?

When the Savage Worlds rules don't exactly give the right feel for your setting, you're supposed to apply patches.

Exactly. There are so many different ways that magic is handled in books and movies that it is left to GMs to determine how magic works.

And, there are several options for getting those "patches"
1. PEG forums. The people will often help a person create a system or direct them to several different alternate magic systems. Systems for rituals. Systems that resemble Shadowrun and more.
2. The Fantasy Companion: Itis my understanding that this has options for tailoring divine magic and arcane magic to be more like D&D.
3. Third party Settings.