Tell me about weapons of legacy
- Thread starter Gundark
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HeapThaumaturgist
First Post
I'm currently playing in an AoW campaign. The GM allowed me to found my own Legacy item on the MW Greatclub my character had from the beginning.
For my part, I'm liking it. The character penalty progression is quite minor, that I've found, though that seems to scare people away from using it. I founded it as a weapon for a spellcaster, as I'm almost full-class Cleric. (Bbn1/ClrX)
So far I don't think my item is ... overpowering. It's actually MORE powerful than a by-the-book WoLegacy because the GM has allowed me to add some non-standard things to it ... namely absorbing a +1 Frost Greatclub into the WoL and getting Frost added, and allowing me to take the Brutal Surge weapon quality from DMGII.
At 13th level, the item currently acts as a +2 Holy Undead-Bane Frost Greatclub, increases my effective Cleric Turning level by +1, increases my effective Cleric level by +1 for Smite purposes (Destruction Domain), grants Protection From Evil when held and glows when Undead are within 60'.
I did the founding rituals, paid the gold, paid the XP. I wrote out a full item description as-per the WoL descriptions in the book ... mostly because I wanted to.
I wouldn't say the weapon is overpowered. Even in encounters against evil undead, the Clr/Rog has various things letting HIM get sneak attack regularly, so his burst damage equals or exceeds mine.
It's thus-far happened that, even though the weapon doesn't eat up a huge percentage of my gold, I'm not then running out and spending my huge savings on "other things". Mostly, it seems, since we're "Need Before Greed", my suave weapon allows others to keep more loot intact and my character's total GP worth is down ... balancing the item even more.
Another character has a feat, Ancestral Weapon, I think ... that allows him to "burn" magical items on a 1gp-1gp basis to upgrade his own weapon. His ancestral weapon is now a +1 Holy Mage-bane Waraxe, or a +5 item. A few powers and Frost behind my own. His hasn't eaten 14hp, -1Attack, and a 4th level spell slot, as well.
In actual play, I haven't seen where anybody's items have given them a decisive advantage. My character is built that he'd do just about the same amount of damage if he pulled a branch off a tree and started laying about with it. The Clr/Rog, as well, gets most of his umph from spells and sneak attack, so that his weapons are gravy. The guy with the +1 Holy Mage-Bane axe is probably a little more weapon-dependent on when he kicks major butt, but even he has class abilities from Occult Slayer that add to his damage outside of weapons.
The other cleric hasn't drawn a weapon since like level 5. She's got so many spell slots she acts like a nuke-mage as often as not (and has some class ability or feat that lets her trade out slots for Flame Strike, to boot). She's blown bad guys out of their boots as often as anybody else.
--fje
For my part, I'm liking it. The character penalty progression is quite minor, that I've found, though that seems to scare people away from using it. I founded it as a weapon for a spellcaster, as I'm almost full-class Cleric. (Bbn1/ClrX)
So far I don't think my item is ... overpowering. It's actually MORE powerful than a by-the-book WoLegacy because the GM has allowed me to add some non-standard things to it ... namely absorbing a +1 Frost Greatclub into the WoL and getting Frost added, and allowing me to take the Brutal Surge weapon quality from DMGII.
At 13th level, the item currently acts as a +2 Holy Undead-Bane Frost Greatclub, increases my effective Cleric Turning level by +1, increases my effective Cleric level by +1 for Smite purposes (Destruction Domain), grants Protection From Evil when held and glows when Undead are within 60'.
I did the founding rituals, paid the gold, paid the XP. I wrote out a full item description as-per the WoL descriptions in the book ... mostly because I wanted to.
I wouldn't say the weapon is overpowered. Even in encounters against evil undead, the Clr/Rog has various things letting HIM get sneak attack regularly, so his burst damage equals or exceeds mine.
It's thus-far happened that, even though the weapon doesn't eat up a huge percentage of my gold, I'm not then running out and spending my huge savings on "other things". Mostly, it seems, since we're "Need Before Greed", my suave weapon allows others to keep more loot intact and my character's total GP worth is down ... balancing the item even more.
Another character has a feat, Ancestral Weapon, I think ... that allows him to "burn" magical items on a 1gp-1gp basis to upgrade his own weapon. His ancestral weapon is now a +1 Holy Mage-bane Waraxe, or a +5 item. A few powers and Frost behind my own. His hasn't eaten 14hp, -1Attack, and a 4th level spell slot, as well.
In actual play, I haven't seen where anybody's items have given them a decisive advantage. My character is built that he'd do just about the same amount of damage if he pulled a branch off a tree and started laying about with it. The Clr/Rog, as well, gets most of his umph from spells and sneak attack, so that his weapons are gravy. The guy with the +1 Holy Mage-Bane axe is probably a little more weapon-dependent on when he kicks major butt, but even he has class abilities from Occult Slayer that add to his damage outside of weapons.
The other cleric hasn't drawn a weapon since like level 5. She's got so many spell slots she acts like a nuke-mage as often as not (and has some class ability or feat that lets her trade out slots for Flame Strike, to boot). She's blown bad guys out of their boots as often as anybody else.
--fje
Jefe Bergenstein
Legend
Good concept, weak execution. The character penalties seem steep, combined with ritual requirements and actual gold cost. You just give up too much compared to having a character with craft arms and armor whip you up something nice. I particularly dislike the attack penalties with legacy weapons, and have it apply to weapons other than the legacy item. Additionally, they treat sentience as a boon. As a player, I've never consuidered having to deal with an intelligent item a perk, and as a DM I view it as yet *another* NPC in the group.
I like the idea of it, but I don't like how its implemented (I do own the book).
The penalties add up over time and really, imo, reduce the overall effectiveness of the item and the character. Additionally, when you are paying gold and XP for something already, I don't agree you should get more penalties stacked on top.
To do anything really cool with them characters need more feats and most are too feat starved for get these as well as their regular ones, plus if they ever lose the item, its lost feats as well.
But I do really like the concept -- I just can't get around the whole "now you have something powerful and cool -- BUT we HAVE to give you extra penalties for having something poweful and cool." And that mentality I think, is just tiresome in D&D.
I really wish they had come out with some alternate set of mechanics that didn't use the penalty system they currently do. I tried to introduce it in my campaign, but my players (unanimously) told me they didn't want to use it because of the penalties as well (We made up a number of mock items and characters and messed around with them).
The penalties add up over time and really, imo, reduce the overall effectiveness of the item and the character. Additionally, when you are paying gold and XP for something already, I don't agree you should get more penalties stacked on top.
To do anything really cool with them characters need more feats and most are too feat starved for get these as well as their regular ones, plus if they ever lose the item, its lost feats as well.
But I do really like the concept -- I just can't get around the whole "now you have something powerful and cool -- BUT we HAVE to give you extra penalties for having something poweful and cool." And that mentality I think, is just tiresome in D&D.
I really wish they had come out with some alternate set of mechanics that didn't use the penalty system they currently do. I tried to introduce it in my campaign, but my players (unanimously) told me they didn't want to use it because of the penalties as well (We made up a number of mock items and characters and messed around with them).
HeapThaumaturgist
First Post
The penalties are really minor. It's like the XP cost for magical items ... they keep people from WANTING the items, when really they're not that big a penalty.
For instance, looking at my character now, even with the -1 to all attacks, I've got the second-highest Attack Bonus in the group ... and if I didn't have the -1 I'd still be the second-highest.
My attack bonus is so inflated from magic items and spells already anyway that I honest, seriously NEVER NOTICE. I've got power attack and buffs coming from all corners, I'm smiting and flanking and dumping into power attack so often that my AB is always in flux.
I've lost something like 10hp to it ... woo ... I have 108hp as it is and my HP are going up and down all the time from temporary hp, damage, healing, Con adjustments (rage and spells and whatnot). Again ... it's noted and it becomes part of the character. I don't sit about going: "If only I had 10 more hp, why did I ever agree to this fool's bargain?!?!" ... I just get healed or pop a Con increase when I'm low and continue on with the combat. At this level a 2pt con change is a change of 26hp. That 10hp isn't a big deal. If my character dies at -11hp I'm not going to gnash my teeth and get upset, either.
Right now it eats a 4th level slot that's just "gone" until it eats a 5th level slot. Whoop. With the D&D day, we're done by the time I run out of 6th level slots 90% of the time, anyway. Again, I've never found myself gnashing my teeth that I don't have a 4th level spell. And that's a good level of spell, even. I could think of it, and do, as casting a spell every morning with a 24hr duration that gives me: Protection From Evil, +1 Cleric Level for Turn/Smite, and a Brutal Surge.
My character is certainly not crippled by his opportunity costs. I honestly don't notice them. I note them, and go on. There are so many numbers and variables at work with a character and with playing the game that those costs are minor things ... +11 or +12 (often up to like +19 or +20) ... 108 or 118 (often up to 178 or 188) ... 19 spells-per-day or 20?
To be seriously honest? I don't think they so much "balance" that +5-and-beyond weapon so much as keeps everybody else from wanting one.
--fje
For instance, looking at my character now, even with the -1 to all attacks, I've got the second-highest Attack Bonus in the group ... and if I didn't have the -1 I'd still be the second-highest.
My attack bonus is so inflated from magic items and spells already anyway that I honest, seriously NEVER NOTICE. I've got power attack and buffs coming from all corners, I'm smiting and flanking and dumping into power attack so often that my AB is always in flux.
I've lost something like 10hp to it ... woo ... I have 108hp as it is and my HP are going up and down all the time from temporary hp, damage, healing, Con adjustments (rage and spells and whatnot). Again ... it's noted and it becomes part of the character. I don't sit about going: "If only I had 10 more hp, why did I ever agree to this fool's bargain?!?!" ... I just get healed or pop a Con increase when I'm low and continue on with the combat. At this level a 2pt con change is a change of 26hp. That 10hp isn't a big deal. If my character dies at -11hp I'm not going to gnash my teeth and get upset, either.
Right now it eats a 4th level slot that's just "gone" until it eats a 5th level slot. Whoop. With the D&D day, we're done by the time I run out of 6th level slots 90% of the time, anyway. Again, I've never found myself gnashing my teeth that I don't have a 4th level spell. And that's a good level of spell, even. I could think of it, and do, as casting a spell every morning with a 24hr duration that gives me: Protection From Evil, +1 Cleric Level for Turn/Smite, and a Brutal Surge.
My character is certainly not crippled by his opportunity costs. I honestly don't notice them. I note them, and go on. There are so many numbers and variables at work with a character and with playing the game that those costs are minor things ... +11 or +12 (often up to like +19 or +20) ... 108 or 118 (often up to 178 or 188) ... 19 spells-per-day or 20?
To be seriously honest? I don't think they so much "balance" that +5-and-beyond weapon so much as keeps everybody else from wanting one.
--fje
HeapThaumaturgist said:
The penalties are significant. They don't have to be that high to become significant; a -2 penalty to attack rolls ad saves is sufficiently debilitating. Legacy weapons effectively impose negative levels onto a character, they just spread the negative-level penalties (reduced attack rolls, saves, hit points, etc) over levels so it's not quite so apparent.
That you claim your character is so inflated with bonuses frome external sources that his innate bonuses don't amount to much is quite telling. That is in fact very in keeping with the spirit of Weapons of Legacy.
Gundark, to sum up WoL, it is the ultimate expression of the notion that a D&D character should progressively become more defined by his magical gear than his own intrinsic abilities.
The shame of it all is, most of the legacy weapons have pretty interesting descriptions and abilities. They offer more flavor than they do raw power.
Nightfall
Sage of the Scarred Lands
Crothian said:
Well not just the feats but also the fact the penalties suck. For me, if there was a way to combine a lot of various aspects (such as HP loss and maybe ability drains) that also empower the weapons, that would be of more interest to some. (Such as say a weapon that because of the drains/empowerment for Int, Wis, Cha by a character, he loses some of himself but the weapon become more apart of him.)
That kind of thing.
HeapThaumaturgist
First Post
Not very telling at all. Those bonuses are mine, from spells, and most of them have redundant back-ups in the form of feats and class abilities.
My attack bonus is X ... then I enter Barbarian Rage, it increases. I leave Rage, it decreases below where it started. I cast Bull's Strength, it increases. I cast Righteous Might, it increases. I'm Greater Dispelled, it decreases. I cast Divine Favor, it increases. I use the Smite Power it increases. I use Power Attack, it decreases.
My hit points are Y ... I enter Rage, they increase. I get hit, they decrease. I heal myself, they increase. I cast Bear's Endurance, they increase, I get dispelled, they decrease. I use the feat Divine Vigor, they increase.
Each of those changes, including the 1st level spell, are greater changes than the -1 attack or 10hp from the WoL.
My WoL has these penalties.
-1 To Attacks
-10hp
1 4th level Spell Slot.
It never amounts to a full level loss ... which, if I got hit with "A Negative Level" would be
-1 to attacks
-5hp
-1 6th Level Spell
PLUS
-1 Ability Checks
-1 All Saves
-1 All Skill Checks
My character is very self-sufficient. If that character found himself in his PJs in the forest he'd lose this ...
From AC 27 to AC 22.
From Average Attack Bonus +11 to +9
From Wisdom 18 to Wisdom 16.
From average damage 1d10+1d6+17 to 1d6+1d6+15
That's about it, really. Surprisingly very little magical gear. That club nicely spikes damage against Evil Undead, but slapping Spikes and Energy Weapon on a frickin' tree branch does almost the same average damage (3.5 average less).
I've got more money tied up in stuff that doesn't come into play on an average day than anywhere else. Bags of Holding, Scroll of Spell I Don't Often Cast, Headband Of Additional 1st Level Spell Slot.
Naked, in the rain, weilding a day old trout of unusual size ... I still have Rage, Divine Vigor, and Smite. +4 Str, +4 Con, +26hp, +4 atk/+12 dmg.
--fje
My attack bonus is X ... then I enter Barbarian Rage, it increases. I leave Rage, it decreases below where it started. I cast Bull's Strength, it increases. I cast Righteous Might, it increases. I'm Greater Dispelled, it decreases. I cast Divine Favor, it increases. I use the Smite Power it increases. I use Power Attack, it decreases.
My hit points are Y ... I enter Rage, they increase. I get hit, they decrease. I heal myself, they increase. I cast Bear's Endurance, they increase, I get dispelled, they decrease. I use the feat Divine Vigor, they increase.
Each of those changes, including the 1st level spell, are greater changes than the -1 attack or 10hp from the WoL.
My WoL has these penalties.
-1 To Attacks
-10hp
1 4th level Spell Slot.
It never amounts to a full level loss ... which, if I got hit with "A Negative Level" would be
-1 to attacks
-5hp
-1 6th Level Spell
PLUS
-1 Ability Checks
-1 All Saves
-1 All Skill Checks
My character is very self-sufficient. If that character found himself in his PJs in the forest he'd lose this ...
From AC 27 to AC 22.
From Average Attack Bonus +11 to +9
From Wisdom 18 to Wisdom 16.
From average damage 1d10+1d6+17 to 1d6+1d6+15
That's about it, really. Surprisingly very little magical gear. That club nicely spikes damage against Evil Undead, but slapping Spikes and Energy Weapon on a frickin' tree branch does almost the same average damage (3.5 average less).
I've got more money tied up in stuff that doesn't come into play on an average day than anywhere else. Bags of Holding, Scroll of Spell I Don't Often Cast, Headband Of Additional 1st Level Spell Slot.
Naked, in the rain, weilding a day old trout of unusual size ... I still have Rage, Divine Vigor, and Smite. +4 Str, +4 Con, +26hp, +4 atk/+12 dmg.
--fje
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