Tell Me and my Son about Mutants & Masterminds

[Mark Chance]

For example, in a PL 10 game:

You can have Attack +15, Stun 10 (Extras: Ranged, Range (Perception)) ...

... but not Attack +15, Stun 10 (Extras: Ranged), because for a power that has an attack roll, the power's save DC is the "damage" for cap purposes. So unless you make the power Perception Range, the best you can do in the second case is Stun 5.

That's not accurate. No matter what, attack bonus and damage bonus added together cannot exceed PL times 2. Attack +15, Stun 10 (regardless of range) exceeds allowable caps.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

No matter what, attack bonus and damage bonus added together cannot exceed PL times 2. Attack +15, Stun 10 (regardless of range) exceeds allowable caps.

You're incorrect. (Actually, I should say, you're incorrect according to one of the rules gurus at Atomic Think Tank.)

Stun 10, unless it's delivered via an attack roll (which it is, by default, but isn't if upped to Perception Range), is limited by the Save DC cap, not by the Attack/Damage cap.

Feel free to ask over at Atomic Think Tank. The thread in which I learned of this application of caps is THIS ONE. I'd be happy if UnkindMirror were wrong, because (as I implied earlier), I think it's kind of a silly distinction.

 

[Dionysos]

What Mark said is not exactly correct, but I strongly recommend playing as if it were. Allowing characters to break cap for non-attack-roll powers can actually break the game.

 

[Mark Chance]

You're incorrect. (Actually, I should say, you're incorrect according to one of the rules gurus at Atomic Think Tank.)

Attack/Damage total cannot exceed PL x2. Attack roll, no attack roll, range, are all irrelevant to this limit. The same applies to Defense/Toughness. If UnkindMirror said otherwise, he botched it. Check trade-offs on page 24 of the rulebook. Regarding Perception range powers specifically, since they do not require an attack roll, you cannot use the attack/damage trade-off with them.

Check the handy FAQ:

http://grfiles.game-host.org/2e_files/MM2eFAQ.pdf

Also check this handy thread:

The Atomic Think Tank • View topic - Elric's Index of Official Rules Answers & General Resources

Some Q&A from Steve Kenson:

The Atomic Think Tank • View topic - PL Limit
The Atomic Think Tank • View topic - Attack/Damage Tradeoffs for Different attacks

That is to say, if a character of power level 10 wants his highest attack bonus to be +15, then his highest possible saving throw modifier is +5.

With that particular attack. The character could have other attack/damage combos. He could have a +5 attack/+15 damage combo, a +12 attack/+8 combo, and a +10 attack/+10 damage combo, representing three different types of attacks modeled by his powers, feats, et cetera.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

Oh, and another one: the mods for size changes (e.g., Growth, Shrinking) apply to caps, which makes sense ... but only if they're Permanent. ("Wait, what?")

Where did you hear this? Growth and Shrinking change traits which are covered by caps, therefore they are covered by caps. Same as how feats that only give you a situational bonus to attack or defense say you cannot exceed caps with them.

Not only does that make little sense, IMO it's actively unintuitive. ("Wait ... if I have to roll to hit, risking a miss, my power has to be weaker? But if I hit automatically, my power can be stronger?")

Perception is seen by some people as actually not a very good part of the system because of the way it screws around with tradeoffs (it makes shifting toward Defense bad because Perception bypasses that, and Defense already has enough issues with loosing dodge bonus).

 

[Jeff Wilder]

With that particular attack. The character could have other attack/damage combos. He could have a +5 attack/+15 damage combo, a +12 attack/+8 combo, and a +10 attack/+10 damage combo, representing three different types of attacks modeled by his powers, feats, et cetera.

This is simply not correct. (So is the rest of what you said, but this one's a doozy.) Attack/Damage trade-offs don't care which of four (or whatever) attacks you're using. If your attack roll is +15, your damage is limited to +5. There are feats that specifically allow you to manipulate these caps, but simply buying "different attacks" does not do it.

(This applies to things like Stun if they use an attack roll. If they don't, they're limited by the Save DC cap.)

As for Shrinking and Growth, according to SK they only count against caps if they're permanent. Again, feel free to go on Atomic Think Tank and ask, which is what I do. Over and over again.

 

[Mark Chance]

This is simply not correct.

Yes, it is. Check the links I posted. The author of the game himself says as much. Everything I told you is dead on according to the rules. Anyone who told you differently is mistaken.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Yes, it is. Check the links I posted. The author of the game himself says as much. Everything I told you is dead on according to the rules. Anyone who told you differently is mistaken.

You're right. My bad. This will teach me to make categorical pronouncements about rules that I'm not expert in.

Regarding Shrinking and Growth, a poster asked if temporary bonuses (from Shrinking, Growth, and Shapeshift, for example) apply to caps. SK said, "For the size-altering powers, generally no, since they have some corresponding drawbacks. For powers like Density and Shapeshift, I recommend they remain within the PL limits."

This was argued to me as not being true if the powers were Permanent, but SK doesn't say that, and his logic holds whether they're Permanent or not. He does point out elsewhere that this can create overpowered characters.

 

[coyote6]

I think Steve has said the PL limits definitely apply to traits affected by permanent Shrinking or Growth (or Density). IMO, it's also wise to apply the PL limits to non-permanent versions of those powers, though it can be tricky to do, and I'm willing to let a point or so slide. But definitely beware of Blast 10, ranged attack +10, Shrinking 12/16/20 guy -- that +4/+8/+12 size bonus to attack & defense can be ugly.

Also, the way PL works is that, through trade-offs, attack+damage can't be more than 2xPL. However, for a perception range attack (or an area attack), there is no attack score, thus there can be no trade-off. Therefore, your theoretical attack +15 guy's +15 attack is irrelevant; he's limited to strict PL, which means he can go up to +10 with the perception range power. Yes, this can be abused; perception range powers are by themselves quite powerful, and, IMO, a little shaky. But the GM can say, "hmm, no, please don't do that" when it's a problem; and for some characters, it may be perfectly fine.

Oh, BTW, the advantages that +15 attack guy has are that he can critically hit with his blast, and he can use all those shift attack bonus feats with it (i.e., Power Attack, Power Attack + All Out Attack, Defensive Attack, Defensive Attack + Accurate Attack); the guy with the perception range power can't do any of that, since there is no attack roll.