Tell me why Druids are the most powerful class

[Pielorinho]

Hmmm, Druid with sling vs Dire bears...I think the Bears would be wandering off out of boredom before he killed anything.

Hee! Very cute!

Remember, though, we're talking about using flying magic--I'm pointing out that if the fighter can do it, the druid probably can as well. And sure, the druid with the sling is going to take a lot longer than the fighter; but if the druid gets bored, that's when he can speed things up with a flame strike or three, not an option for the fighter. And if the bears run away (beneath some trees or something), the druid can use terrain-altering spells to slow their retreat, not an option for the fighter.

But even if we limit the druid to using exactly the same resources as the fighter (ranged weapons and a single flying-type magic item), the druid will still complete the task, albeit a little bit slower.

There are surely other examples that'll show the fighter to shine. I just really think this one ain't it.

Daniel

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

My apologies, I thought I already had...

No. None of you examples reasonably meet your standard of "they will consistently perform at the level of effectiveness of the guy who is supposed to be the best at doing whatever it is that needs doing". None.

The closest you get is comparing the Druid and Ranger in an outdoors, but that is entirely ambiguous regards who is supposed to be best at that, or what goals you have in mind. The Ranger is damn good in all environments all the time because of his combination of Spot, Listen, Move Silently, Hide, and the Track feat.

I would certainly agree that the Druid is amazingly versatile and is the 3rd or 4th best man for the job in an astounding number of circumstances. He is the best at very, very few things.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Pielorinho,

I think we are miscommunicating because we are struggling to compare apples to oranges.

The main point I am trying to make is that for all that Wildshape seems to be pointed out as Exhibit A in the case for the Druid being overpowered, in fact, without buffing or some super exotic magic item in some supplement, the wildshape form is inherently dangerous for the Druid. Fighting in melee as an animal without the buffs is suicidal.

So what we are really talking about is a buffed up Druid being pretty darn powerful. Is this really any different than the buffed out Cleric fighting as well as the Fighter?

 

[Pielorinho]

I would certainly agree that the Druid is amazingly versatile and is the 3rd or 4th best man for the job in an astounding number of circumstances. He is the best at very, very few things.

That sounds about right to me.

Druids are probably the best at:
-Environmental management (entangle, wall of thorns, transmute rock to mud, spike growth, spike stones, etc.)
-Killing fire elementals (Quench is an unbelievably nice spell in a very small range of circumstances)
-Dealing with animals
-Scrying
-Summoning

Druids can fill in as:
-Scouts (they'll probably be seen, but probably will be dismissed in most cases as unimportant; they'll have trouble getting close enough to see inside buildings or hear conversations)
-Healers (they can fill this role, but they're much less flexible at it than a cleric or even a healing-focused bard)
-Damage dealers (Flame Strike has certain advantages over fireball, but in general its higher level and lower AoE makes it an inferior spell)
-Buffers (they get the fantabulous barkskin, but otherwise their buffing is inferior to a wizard's)
-Fighters (they can get big and powerful, but they'll lack the feats and BAB of a fighter, and they'll require extra resources to obtain a similar AC)
-Magekillers (they can grapple better than a monk, but they lack the ability to stun)

The things they're best at, in other words, are pretty specialized; but they can fill in as second-best in a wide variety of roles.

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

The main point I am trying to make is that for all that Wildshape seems to be pointed out as Exhibit A in the case for the Druid being overpowered, in fact, without buffing or some super exotic magic item in some supplement, the wildshape form is inherently dangerous for the Druid. Fighting in melee as an animal without the buffs is suicidal.

So what we are really talking about is a buffed up Druid being pretty darn powerful. Is this really any different than the buffed out Cleric fighting as well as the Fighter?

We probably are miscommunicating here. I think the relevant point is that a druid using animal growth on himself becomes stupid powerful, so powerful that I disallow the combination and encourage my DM to do the same. You're talking about whether wildshape by itself is a magic-bullet tactic, I think.

We both agree that wildshape by itself is no magic bullet. What do you think about whether wildshape+animal growth is a magic bullet, at least as far as melee combat is concerned?

Daniel

 

[DSC-EricPrice]

Dont get me wrong, animal growth has some nice effects to it (DR 10/magic and the +4 bonus to saves come to mind) that make it a no brainer if you're going to have some varmints around to cast it on. When we wrote and playtested GotU though we operated under the assumption that a druid could not use his wildshape magic to attain a larger animal form than his own size and THEN make use of the animal growth spell. A human druid changing into a medium-size wolf and then using animal growth might be one thing, but a human changing into a Huge Dire Elephant was bad enough without making it Gargantuan. :|

I believe someone else already mentioned that though, "multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."

Where druids seem to get such a bad wrap in OUR games is in their ability to break some deus ex machina situation of the DM. Case in point, I played a druid that used his ability to change into a gargantuan squid to grab hold of his party members and shoot (at lightning speed, have you seen how fast they move) out of the way of a gigantic baddie sneaking in from behind. In one round I changed a lethal ambush into a tactical advantage for the party, much to the DMs chagrin. Ive used it to as others suggest to scout out enemy fortresses and do quick arial recon.

You could probably convince me to reduce their skill points OR get rid of the SNA (An ability that we rarely used after the game got so high because of the combat inneffectiveness of the creatures). I would point out any self respecting nature lover should have qualms about using his companions and summons of nature in a clearly consumable way as some have described here. Next you'll be cutting down the trees to build a fort for "the good of the forest".

Until we wrote GotU though the AC of the druid seemed woefully inadequate, their spells definitely second rate. Perhaps we simply needed to add more magical items to our game. To those who think SNA is so great, ask yourselves this. Given an ally for the party in combat, which would you RATHER have?

A grig (CR 1), unicorn (CR 3) or a pixie (CR 5 with dance ) that you get with a 9th level SNA

(ok, ok, admittedly there is the elder elemental at CR 11)

or a couatl (CR 10), bebilith (CR 10), or Barbed Devil (CR 11), or a slew of other creatures available with SM 9.

 

[DSC-EricPrice]

Oh, and I stand by Riddly's Cohort and the others. If you dont buff your wildshape (or your companion for that matter) at higher levels, youre going to be fodder.

 

[Felix]

Ahem. Aparrently I was vague.

No. None of you examples reasonably meet your standard of "they will consistently perform at the level of effectiveness of the guy who is supposed to be the best at doing whatever it is that needs doing". None.

"Level of effectiveness" means that the Druid can get the job done, not that he does everything exactly as well as the other guy. But since I don't want to be vague about it...

Melee: The Druid can Wildshape and tangle up with foes.

Specifically:
The fighter is supposed to be the best at this. Against single foes he will be able to Wildshape to change into a bear form and grapple the heck out of them. The low AC will become much less of a problem, and the natural attacks will allow the Druid to dish out a fair amount of damage and stop the enemy from doing the same. A fighter would use his weapon to deal damage, and rely on his AC to protect his HP. When confronted with multiple foes who threaten to overwhelm, the Druid can easily withdraw wheras the fighter is left in a sea of baddies.

Healing: Not as good as the Cleric, but he can prepare Cure spells, and Wildshape heals himself.

Specifically:
Like the Cleric, Ranger and Paladin, the Druid can easily use Wands to dispense healing. No, he is not a Cleric, but he can prepare Cure spells, to supply backup healing. He heals himself "naturally" when Wildshaping so as to not draw so much healing away from the rest of the party. This helps. And in my experience, the role of party healer is played about half the time by a wand.

Scouting: Again, Wildshape is key here, and he can become a fairly innocuous rat in urban environments, or a hawk in natural ones. As such he is generally undetectable by enemies because he is in plain sight. Nature Sense gives the Druid a slight edge over the Ranger in Survival, as long as it's not about tracking Favored Enemies.

Specifically:
The Druid also has Spot and Listen on his skill list. The druid can become an innocuous animal through Wildshape; this is better than a good Hide and Move Silently check in many cases as it can't be defeated by an opposed skill roll. The Druid can fly while doing so. The Druid can Survival it as good as if not better than the Ranger (again, except when tracking Favored Enemies) and it isn't impossible for the Druid to take Track.

Support Spells:
The Druid has some great buffs, and while Summon Nature's Ally doesn't have the punch that Summon Monster does, he can do it at a whim. He has the best caster's anti-melee abjuration in the game in Anti-life Shell. Can Scry for "free", and pretty much anywhere.

Specifically:
Do you want me to post all the spells, or can you check them out on your own?

Attack Spells: These don't really come into their own until the higher levels, but when the Druid reaches 5th level spells he starts laying the hurt down. If you are skeptical, read Sepulchrave's story hour... in it you will see a single druid laying waste to an Army with strong clerical support.

Specifically:
The Druid has very good range on his spells, which Clerics do not. This means he contends with the Sor/Wiz list for blasting. While this selection is not as varied as the Sor/Wiz list, there are good spells for killing things here.
Flame Strike
Ice Storm
Spike Stones
Baleful Polymorph
Call Lightning Storm
Wall of Fire
Fire Seeds
Finger of Death
Sunburst
Whirlwind
Elemental Swarm
Shambler
Storm of Vengance

Skills: Outdoorsy in nature, but they arn't bad; Listen and Spot go a long way, specially for casters. And while Clerics, Wizards and Sorcs languish under 2+INT for skills, the Druid has a nice 4+.

Specifically:

• The Rogue is the king of skills, but like many complain, spells overtake skills at higher levels. And the Druid has spells. And what mechanical stuff the Druid can't do (Open Lock, Disable Device), he can get around with Meld Into Stone, Stone Shape, Warp Wood, Wood Shape etc. Also thanks to Find the Path and Scrying, he knows a hella lot more about where he's going than a Rogue.

• Spot, Listen, Know(nature), Survival, Diplomacy, Spellcraft, Concentration, Handle Animal, Heal, Ride, Swim, Craft, Profession. Those that are very useful are bolded. This allows the Druid to operate in the wild, and Diplomacy allows him to operate fairly well in urban environments. No, not as well as a Bard, but then, the Druid doesn't have to be as obvious about his operations as a bard thanks to Wildshaping.

Information Gathering: In natural environments the Druid is the best info-gatherer in the game, what with Stone Tell, Speak with Animals and Speak with Plants. In urban environs, he has Diplomacy as a class skill, and the role-playing advantage of being able to say that he represents Nature... and that Nature is something the urbanites don't want to upset.

Specifically:
The Diviner is going to be the best at this, what with his bevy of Detect spells. But outside of that, the Druid has...

• Speak with Animals will get information out of any animal after a successful Wild Empathy check. Not all animals live in the wilderness, so you could get info about a place by asking the animals that live nearby in the city.

• Commune with Nature will tell you where anything is within a few miles. This is in many ways superior to Commune and Contact other Plane because you don't have to deal with misleading answers or the potential for a stat decrease. It's either a mile in that direction up a tree, or out of range.

• Druidic Scrying is the best in the game because it is free and can be done anywhere.

• Stone Tell and Speak with Plants will get you information about what has passed either in the wild or underground. No other class can do this as accurately.

• Find the Path anyone? Only kina a good spell.

Character Interaction: Again, the Druid can rely on Diplomacy to help here. It won't be as powerful because the Bluff, Sense Motive and Know (royalty) skill are cross-class, but it can be strong. The Druid's spell list does not help much here. It's campaign specific, but a society of druids is common, and a built-in support for the Druid character.

Specifically:
Ah, the weakness. Druids can't interact with NPCs as well as Bards.

 

[Felix]

I believe someone else already mentioned that though, "multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."

Yes, I think this is the fourth or fifth mention of it. I suppose it does nothing to assuage you to remind you that several other people have posted that the do stack because Wildshape alters form, not size.

I would point out any self respecting nature lover should have qualms about using his companions and summons of nature in a clearly consumable way as some have described here. Next you'll be cutting down the trees to build a fort for "the good of the forest".

You don't think that Druids understand the simple fact that Summoned creatures arn't actually killed when they reach 0HP? That somehow they missed that in Spellcraft school?

Given an ally for the party in combat, which would you RATHER have?

If I'm confronted with some folks I want to either enchant or please or otherwise avoid combat, I would rather have the Pixie or Grig. If I want to fight them, I want the Elder Elemental.

P.S.: the Unicorn mentioned in SNA 9 is a celestial charger, which is different from the base unicorn. It's in the MM. A normal unicorn is available with SNA 4.

without buffing or some super exotic magic item in some supplement, the wildshape form is inherently dangerous for the Druid. Fighting in melee as an animal without the buffs is suicidal.

Yes it is a use, but fighting is not the only use for Wildshape, at high or low levels. And it is suicidal unless you use your forms to their fullest. Standing toe-to-toe with a greatsword wielder is silly; grapple him. And you don't have to Wildshape, it's just often a good option to do so.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

More to the point, in a world where a reliable magic exists and high level NPC's run around the place some sort of magic economy is practically demanded to exist if we want things to be internally consistant.

I have great respect for internal consistency and game logic. I have a greater respect for fun and the feel of a setting.

Given a conflict between the two, I'd want the DM to make decisions such that the feel of the setting and the fun of the game are preserved. For example, if the DM and the players like the image of mounted knights, the DM may have to cut back the assumed prevalence of wizards among NPCs to ensure that the cavalry charge is still a potent force on the battlefield - but he can do this without hurting the PCs at all, just ignore the DMG demographics. If the players and DM agree that magic shops detract from the game, then they should feel free to discard them, internal logic be damned.

I have no respect at all for the DMG demographics - I didn't buy the DMG as a campaign setting manual. High level NPCs only run around the place if the DM says they do, and even then magic shops only exist if the DM says they do - the DM is free to come up with in-game reasons why wizards do not sell their wares to just anybody with ready cash.

You want to talk logic? The dragonhide armor is one of the worst examples of the magic-store economics. A single suit of dragonhide full plate can be made from a Colossal dragon. How many Colossal dragons have been slain in the history of your game world? There are, at maximum, that many suits of dragonhide full plate available. No more. Every single suit is the skin of an Epic wyrm or great wyrm. Yet for its price, it's available in lots of towns. Or scrolls of 9th-level spells; they don't cost that much, so they'd be available in lots of places, but they can only be made by the mightiest of wizards. Why is this wizard scribing and selling scrolls? Tome of +5 to a stat? Costs 25,000 XP. What high-level NPC is so desperate for so much gold that they would make that? With magic store economics, PCs assume that anything in the DMG can be found in a town of the appropriate size. That's ludicrous. Every one of those items is made by an NPC who meets all the prerequisites, has a dire need for gold, is willing to sacrifice his life energy, and doesn't need the resulting item.