Tempest Fighter makes me happy.

[Staffan]

Too bad Dual Strike only hits a single target. Otherwise it would have been a great option for a fighter looking to mark multiple targets.

 

[Kzach]

You do more damage with power attack

"More" needs to be qualified here as without doing so, it sounds like it's somehow significant.

1 extra point of damage is not significant.

Your weapon has a bigger W for multiple W attacks

Off-set by the fact that versatile weapons have a higher bonus to hit and the same average damage when wielded 2H and a higher minimum damage.

And again, the piddly amount of extra damage you get amounts to very little effect in game.

You do more damage with Reaping Strike

Which also doesn't count on minions, making Cleave by far the better choice for a defender whose job it is to get into the middle of everything and tie-up as many foes as possible.

Cleave and Tide of Iron pwn Reaping Strike.

2H weapons are fine (rather than the overpowered cheese that they've been for the last few years) IMO

At the moment, anyone who takes a 2H weapon fighter over a 1H weapon fighter as the sole defender in the group, is doing the group a disservice. The tiny amount of extra damage he dishes out is off-set by the resources he's going to eat up being kept up because of his lower AC and Reflex defences.

Whereas this 2W fighter variant is quite well balanced. You get a good benefit for what you're losing. I wouldn't begrudge a player who chose this as the party's sole defender. I would, however, be miffed if they chose a 2H fighter.

 

[Cadfan]

Mathematically this fighter is very, very similar to the two handed fighter. The numbers simply aren't different enough to justify loving the TWF and hating the 2HF.

 

[deleteme123456]

Looking at level 1, assuming TWFighter dual-wielding shortswords (feat: two-weapon fighting) vs TWF Ranger dual-wielding bastard swords (feat: weapon prof: bastard swords). Assume a +3 or +4 modifier, as long as it's the same (and why not, both classes want str, wis, con, and maybe dex for blade feats).

If both hits land:
Fighter: main hand 1d6+1(TWF)+2(class feature) + offhand 1d6+2 = 2d6 + 5 = 12.5 average
Ranger: MH 1d10+1 + OH 1d10 + 1d6 (either hand quarry) = 2d10 + 1 + 1d6 = 15.5 average

If one hit (MH vs OH changes damage by 1 for both) lands:
F: MH 1d6 + 2 + 1 = 6.5 average
R: MH 1d10 + 1 + 1d6 = 10 average

So the ranger stays slightly ahead in damage and can attack two targets, and could wear scale or plate if he had the con and feats (probably scale at level 2 if he wants it). The fighter has to drop 1 AC by going to Chain and take the Check penalty. He gets a light shield bonus back, so if he was going to wear a light shield anyway he's still out the one, and vs the 2H fighter, he's probably even and has a +1 reflex. The ranger also has free toughness.

If the fighter could attack 2 targets regularly with this, marking both, it would be ugly.

 

[ObsidianCrane]

I'm pretty sure Tempest is balanced against Strikers, but I'm not so sure about the balance against the other fighter builds, especially if you want a +3WP weapon without a feat. Time will tell I guess.

Time in this case meaning that we will see the additional options that are added for the other fighter builds.

 

[That One Guy]

Looking at level 1, assuming TWFighter dual-wielding shortswords (feat: two-weapon fighting) vs TWF Ranger dual-wielding bastard swords (feat: weapon prof: bastard swords). Assume a +3 or +4 modifier, as long as it's the same (and why not, both classes want str, wis, con, and maybe dex for blade feats).

If both hits land:
Fighter: main hand 1d6+1(TWF)+2(class feature) + offhand 1d6+2 = 2d6 + 5 = 12.5 average
Ranger: MH 1d10+1 + OH 1d10 + 1d6 (either hand quarry) = 2d10 + 1 + 1d6 = 15.5 average

If one hit (MH vs OH changes damage by 1 for both) lands:
F: MH 1d6 + 2 + 1 = 6.5 average
R: MH 1d10 + 1 + 1d6 = 10 average

So the ranger stays slightly ahead in damage and can attack two targets, and could wear scale or plate if he had the con and feats (probably scale at level 2 if he wants it). The fighter has to drop 1 AC by going to Chain and take the Check penalty. He gets a light shield bonus back, so if he was going to wear a light shield anyway he's still out the one, and vs the 2H fighter, he's probably even and has a +1 reflex. The ranger also has free toughness.

If the fighter could attack 2 targets regularly with this, marking both, it would be ugly.

Why not weapon focus:Light Blade? Not a huge damage bump, but just curious. Also, why not assume more dex focus with the fighter? The ranger will have toughness, but the fighter has a few more surges - and thus longevity in combat.

I guess I'm just trying to understand what your point of view is. Are you arguing for why the two target marking would be over powered? Are you just running numbers for people who want to know? ...I'm confused.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Okay, the article makes me even more interested in the Martial Handbook. Not that I needed any more reasons to get it.

The "secret" two two-handed weapons seem to me reach weapons. Sure, for many fighter abilities, that might seem irrelevant, but the ability to fight immobilized enemies from outside their reach can be pretty powerful.
And then, the extra damage mixing Power Attack and multiple [W] powers should not be discounted, either. You are trading defense for offense, and I will claim it is a fair trade which means that it is a stylistic choice, not a choice of power.

 

[ObsidianCrane]

That would be fine if there currently existed some way to really make Reach weapons work for a fighter - ie they need a way to get Threatening Reach.

 

[JosephK]

Double post, ach sorry.

 

[JosephK]

Some of the guys over at the character optimization forums (down atm) ran the numbers and it looks like TWF vastly outdamages 2H weapon. It's pretty bad at the heroic tier and gets worse and worse through paragon into epic.

I really hope there is some love for 2H fighters in the book as well, as it looks now 2H is going to be sub-par damage-wise and defense-wise to TWF. This is under the assumption that a TWF fighter is only giving up 'weapon talent', maybe they give up other stuff too (combat superiority?), then it might be more balanced.