Template question about saves....

[SpikeyFreak]

The templates that WotC has released which change the base creature's type just leave the base creature's saves as is.

Is this right?

If an ogre becomes a vampire, shouldn't its will save become good since undead have their will save as their good save?

The reason I ask is because I'm making a template that changes a humanoid into an aberration, and I'm at am impass as far as whether or not the template should change saves.

--Stuck Spikey

 

[drnuncheon]

IMHO, it should not change the saves or BAB. Those saves were obtained when the creature was a different type - just like you don't alter your saves or BAB when you switch from being a fighter to being a wizard.

Basically, I'm advocating treating saves like extra skills & languages from Int bonus - any changes that happen afterwards are non-retroactive.

If the character advances further as a creature of the new type, it would follow the rules for that of course.

 

[Crothian]

Since templates actually change the creature I'd say yes, they do change the saves and everything else. A human that is really an Abberation should follow the guidelines for an Aberation.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Nope, not true. Changing base saving throws, attack bonuses, etc, would change the creatures CR... whether up or down. That's not included in the CR boost for gaining a template. For instance, half-dragon giving all saves would not be useful for vermin, who don't get much of an attack bonus boost, but really good for fey, who get a terrible attack bonus. Then they'd need templates like so

CR +2 for abberations +3 for humanoids +1 for vermin +8 for classed outsiders etc. Besides, the rules[/i] say not to change their base stats; just add the template stuff. Simple, huh?

 

[Artoomis]

Fortunately, most of the templates specifically state what to do with saves, etc. For example, from the vampire template:

The creature’s type changes to "undead." It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Saves: Same as the base creature

It makes it very clear. Where it gets muddy is for things like a paladin's mount where that kind of clear guidance is lacking.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

A paladin's mount is a template based on an ordinary animal (usually a heavy warhorse). The template changes its type to magical beast, but does not change most of its base stats (Str and Int get bonuses).

For paladin's mount, use the animal's base saving throw or the PALADIN's base saving throw, whichever is better. Then apply stat mods. In practice, the mount keeps the Refles save and uses the paladin's other saves.

For other stats, use the animal's base stats. For its BAB, use +3/4 HD, not +1/HD. For hit points, use d8, not d10. It explicitly says to give bonus d8s in the PHB.

Even though the mount has a higher Intelligence score, and is a magical beast, it doesn't gain extra skill points. You could allow extra skills, but as a house rule only.

In short

When using templates, do not change the base stats. There are a few WotC web templates for undead and driders that specifically make modifications to the rules. If you make your own template you can use whatever rules you like. But if in doubt, if nothings is specifically said about changing base stats, then don't change the base stats.

- Repetitive Psychic

 

[Artoomis]

A paladin's mount is a template based on an ordinary animal (usually a heavy warhorse). The template changes its type to magical beast, but does not change most of its base stats (Str and Int get bonuses).

For paladin's mount, use the animal's base saving throw or the PALADIN's base saving throw, whichever is better. Then apply stat mods. In practice, the mount keeps the Refles save and uses the paladin's other saves.

For other stats, use the animal's base stats. For its BAB, use +3/4 HD, not +1/HD. For hit points, use d8, not d10. It explicitly says to give bonus d8s in the PHB.

Even though the mount has a higher Intelligence score, and is a magical beast, it doesn't gain extra skill points. You could allow extra skills, but as a house rule only.

In short

When using templates, do not change the base stats. There are a few WotC web templates for undead and driders that specifically make modifications to the rules. If you make your own template you can use whatever rules you like. But if in doubt, if nothings is specifically said about changing base stats, then don't change the base stats.

- Repetitive Psychic

I'm not goiing to debate paladin's mount again (my fault for bringing it up), but I just want to point out that the paladin's mount is written up DIFFERENTLY than the MM templates - it does NOT say anything about how they "advance" with their extra hit die (as a animal or miagical beast) except a reminder to add attack and save bonuses. With their increased intelligence, it's very counter-intuitive to deny them skill points and feats for advancement, though. The MM templates have much better write-ups.

In any case, you have correctly stated the most commonly accepted rule.