"That spear would have skewered a wild boar!" : Should Heavy armor negate crits?

Should heavy armor negate crits in D&D Next?

  • Yes, but only for mundane/magic platemail, not for mundane chain, etc

    Votes: 7 16.7%
  • Yes, but only magical/special heavy armor should negate crits, better than just AC boosts

    Votes: 3 7.1%
  • Yes, but...(see below)

    Votes: 3 7.1%
  • No, it's not good enough, I'd prefer DR or some other boost

    Votes: 2 4.8%
  • No, it's too good, everyone will want it and "need" to have it.

    Votes: 13 31.0%
  • No, but...(see below)

    Votes: 14 33.3%

  • Poll closed .
I say no.

And as to the original example - I always considered that a "AC is also hitting armor and not getting damage through" - although, in next, it could be a Slayer miss - He missed the attack (due to the armor of the Mithril Chain) and did his humongous STR bonus in damage to Frodo.
 

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Interesting, because in the only two editions where any of those were sort of true, it was called by its proper name of "plate armor" (or "half-plate" / "full plate").

It's not about historical accuracy, it's about terminological accuracy. "Mail" (or maille) literally means armor made of linked metal rings.
I used the definition I could recite most easily off the top of my head. If I had BECMI/1st/2nd Ed AC tables memorized, I would've quoted that one. Do you have an opinion on the idea of critical hits and plate armor, or do you just want to give us etymology lessons?
 

I used the definition I could recite most easily off the top of my head. If I had BECMI/1st/2nd Ed AC tables memorized, I would've quoted that one. Do you have an opinion on the idea of critical hits and plate armor, or do you just want to give us etymology lessons?
I did state my opinion, which is that it adds needless complexity. Anyway, the only reason I asked was because Baldur's Gate had mail, "plate mail" (described as a hybrid of plate and mail), and full plate (which was confusingly called "plate mail" or "full plate mail" sometimes, but not always).
 

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Perhaps I should have specified that the poll was for those who thought that plate armor was underperforming in D&D (various recent editions) compared to light armor.

"1. Why doesn't the poll have a "no, because it adds needless complexity" option? Yeah, it's just one rule, but it's a rule that you have to keep remembering, and mention to every new player (even those who have played other versions of D&D) and explain why it exists when the new player says it doesn't make any sense."

Not needless, if you are one who agrees that plate armor gets the shaft in most editions of D&D, (see innumerable other polls on the subject). There needs, IMO, to be something more than just AC boost to differentiate it. Why? Because of the Dex scaling issues.

Until we see the re-jigged AC values and their allowed Dex bonuses, this is all rather moot.

But if I see another edition of D&D where cheap-o-McStabby the rogue spends 20gp on studded leather at level 1 and has the same AC as a fighter who clanks around the dungeon, waking up every monster in the place, falling into more traps, getting run down by faster enemies or allowing others to escape...I ..am...going...to...scream! *metaphorically.

If this is the case, then the coverage of armour really needs to be taken into account. Because at the moment you have a 5% chance of finding a gap in platemail and a 5% chance of finding a gap when your opponent is nekked.

Not only that, but plate armor would, by the end of its reign, cover every inch of your body. I just watched a show on the topic. They had little clatches to keep the visor shut, there wasn't ANY gap under the arm pits, or behind the legs, or the groin, or anything. In D&D parlance that would be full plate vs normal plate.

Tell me how you'd narrate critting someone in full plate. Seriously. A tiny slit in your visor to see...NO arrows can get in there. They were designed that way. The regular plate in the image I posted might have some gaps...but those gaps were still smaller than the wide open space between your chin and your shoulders without armor on at all. +1 AC is not balanced vs all the negatives plate armor has out of combat.

That said, I would be willing to add -1 to your attacks though, compared to light or no armor. Tanks are slower and less capable of turning on a dime than light infrantry, or aiming due to the restricted visibility. I do think it should grant less dexterity, in the form of to-hit bonus.

Anyway the polls have spoken.

It's amazing for me to read Herschel's posts though...I disagree with pretty every single thing he's ever written on this board. Wide tents and all that.

That said, I'm happier with DDN playtest rules than what I was playing for three years between 2008 and 2011...by a huge margin. Let's hope they throw a bone to heavy armor users...or I'll just wear light armor and reflavour it like it's plate armor (as I did in the end of my playing..that other edition where Dex was a god-stat....)

I'd love to see what the fatality rates would have been for unarmored jousters...If you model a crit as a lance splinter in your neck, or your eye through the tiny slit in your visor, and your HP is between the average damage of a hit and a crit...then you begin to see that knights would be killed quite often. I don't know what the stats are, but I do know that Henry the VIII jousted for many, many years and died a ripe old man.

Getting blinded or fatally wounded, every 1/20 times you joust...Does not compute. (to me).
 

I'm still going with, "No, it's an added layer of complexity that (probably) doesn't really need to be there." Which is not a specific option on your survey.

-O
 

I'm still going with, "No, it's an added layer of complexity that (probably) doesn't really need to be there." Which is not a specific option on your survey.

-O

This.

Also, that Frodo thing?

No non-magical chain mail would have prevented the spear from CRUSHING HIS RIB CAGE.
 



Not needless, if you are one who agrees that plate armor gets the shaft in most editions of D&D, (see innumerable other polls on the subject). There needs, IMO, to be something more than just AC boost to differentiate it. Why? Because of the Dex scaling issues.

Until we see the re-jigged AC values and their allowed Dex bonuses, this is all rather moot.

But if I see another edition of D&D where cheap-o-McStabby the rogue spends 20gp on studded leather at level 1 and has the same AC as a fighter who clanks around the dungeon, waking up every monster in the place, falling into more traps, getting run down by faster enemies or allowing others to escape...I ..am...going...to...scream! *metaphorically.
I totally agree. I am of the opinion that heavy armor should be "just better" than light armor. I just don't think adding an easily-missed rule that only comes up 5% of the time is a good solution.

Here's my favorite solution: don't have heavy armor negate your Dex bonus to AC. It's elegant, realistic (plate armor isn't actually that constricting), and actually removes complexity.
 

...

Also, that Frodo thing?

No non-magical chain mail would have prevented the spear from CRUSHING HIS RIB CAGE.

Yeah, I kinda agree, but mithril plate..no way.

Anyway, the polls have pretty much spoken. If it's too complex, that's fine. It's much simpler than DR though...and it remains to be seen how they will balance AC to give heavy armor the love it needs.

E.g. Pathfinder has all these feats to boost the AC vs crit confirm rolls. Which is very, very boring IMO. Who wants to spend feats that will benefit 1 out of every 100 or so rolls? Incredibly lame. Crit confirms are probably the thing I liked about Pathfinder the least...but they were added in for a reason : to protect the PCs from getting ganked. Over their lifetime the # of crits vs PCs is insane...

And no way to mitigate that (unless crit immunity or crit confirm rolls are added to Core). Makes for a pretty swingy math game if you ask me. I hated confirming crits though...but didn't mind monsters needing to confirm. Which is why I prefer, if you want to have a tank, you NEED to kind of way to protect yourself against enemy crits. But I don't want to have to roll to confirm ALL the time, nor do I want to place the burden on DMs to do that (who, let's face it...bore the brunt of it).

It amuses me to read people who on the one hand pretend like they hate Save of Die rules (like Herschel...in countless threads...sorry to single you our like that...but I've noticed it many, many times), and yet in this thread you think it's fine to make plate wearers essentially be OK or die against every hit.

It is not a consistent bias...Do you like swingy math, or don't you? I don't understand some of you, honestly. Plate armor wearers being either COMPLETELY Okay all the time, or COMPLETELY ganked...is analogous to stepping into a Save Vs Die trap, every combat.

The unbalancing nature of that was due to the massive narrative asymmetry between the # of hits a typical monster would endure vs the PCs. The truth is, adding crit confirm rules was there to make the game less deadly to the PCs, but ended up also making it such a letdown. I don't see why we can't model a game where there is an inherent asymmetry in the rules to balance out the asymmetry in the # of attacks. But that's gamist...I normally prefer simulationist.

If crit immunity doesn't need to be added to plate, then what? Just more AC ? That's kind of boring. Never getting hit at all, except for crits. Makes for kind of swingy math system.

Not sure if I like that, or dislike it, actually. But one thing's for sure, if crit immunity in plate is too complex, I shudder to think what y'all will think if they come out with a DR system to balance dex-is-god. I will vote for DR in that case.
 
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