D&D 3.x The 3.5 sai - a piercing and/or bludgeoning weapon?

[Tellerve]

marauder, check out the websites listed above, the mention the techniques they were used in, namely disarming other's weapons and throwing them. And as you said, used as a piercing and bludgenoning weapon.

Waldo, your silly

Tellerve

 

[Geoff Watson]

A Movie Sai is piercing, a Historical Sai is bludgeoning.

Geoff.

 

[Tellerve]

And what is the critieria for a weapon having two types?

Tellerve

 

[Klaatu B. Nikto]

With enough force any blunt object becomes able to pierce, especially if the surface area is small. Proof: boxers getting cut above the eyes, the rather odd warning against wearing high heels on a waterbed or the concept behind sleeping on a bed of nails.

I was thinking that Raphael threw his sais at the Shredder during one of their encounters (original Eastman and Laird comic) but I know that Donatello lobbed his staff, which knocked him off the roof. Similarly, Crocodile Dundee KO'd someone with a thrown knife and Elektra got stabbed twice with a sai. Yeah, I know I'm citing fantasy sources but we're discussing the realism of a fantasy game.

I would leave it as bludgeoning. However, I'd consider a houserule so it could do piercing damage if certain conditions are met like a high amount of damage dealt or just sheer strength.

 

[Tellerve]

This really just needs to be a house rule, since nobody wants to get into too fine a detail with what the weapon can and can't do. I think it odd that a morningstar is both but a sai can't be. *shurgs* whatever

and, klaatu, good examples except for the boxer. A boxer doesn't get cut above his eye because he is pierced but rather because the force tears the skin. That's why they wipe down boxers faces with vaseline to try and minimze that from happening and have the glove slide more easily off the head from glancing hits.

Tellerve

 

[Iku Rex]

A Movie Sai is piercing, a Historical Sai is bludgeoning.

Cite?

 

[Zhure]

http://www.karate.org.yu/Matayoshi sai.htm

"At first look, sai looks like kind of a dagger, but actually, its practical application is similar to club use. This weapon has no blade or cutting edge, so it is not intended for slashing but rather for striking. The top* (saki) is dull, which implies that it was not designed for causing mortal wounds. The main purpose of this weapon is to hurt and repulse an attacker. Above the handle (tsuka), there is a hand guard (yoku) especially shaped for not only protecting the hand, but also for catching the opponent’s weapon and disarming as well."

*saki = the tip of the sai, see diagram in link.

http://www.teako170.com/ddscript4.html

From the Daredevil screenplay:
"Bloody HAND--razor sharp SAI enter side window.
Prick up against motorman's throat.

Anxious. He turns--very slowly.
Sees a most displeased Elektra.


INSIDE TRAIN - MINUTE LATER

ELEKTRA moves through the cars.
Bloody sai held to motorman's throat."

-edit- forgot commentary.

I won't claim to be an expert, but all the sai training I had many years ago indicated sai have always been blunt tipped, but like the spiked beak on a European poleweapon, they can be used to penetrate armor. Primary swings with a sai tend to be club-like swings. Thrusting is a secondary consideration, and usually done with the "pommel" (tsuka) or "quillons" (yoku), in -for example - a face gouge.

I speculate clubbing somebody with great sai technique makes for a less cinematic movie, one would imagine, so Hollywood and Hong Kong made sai into piercing weapons. Certainly piercing are more dramatic and are far more indicative of a downed foe, as the "blades" pierce the foe. I blame Frank Miller's Daredevil run for further exacerbating this misconception.

In D&D I'd recommend the sai remain a bludgeoning weapon, as that's how they are made and used. I'd also recommend any prospective sai masters to pick up the "Throw Anything" feat from S&F if they really want to glom onto the whole thrown sai schtick. Traditionally, sai were carried in sets of three, so the first one could be thrown and the other two dual-wielded. Despite being bludgeoning weapons, a thrown sai can penetrate a wooden target nicely, primarily because of its mass and balance. (A thrown sai that hits even obliquely is basically all metal - think of it as a large, very heavy, dull shuriken.)

/ramble
Greg

 

[Iku Rex]

http://www.karate.org.yu/Matayoshi sai.htm

"At first look, sai looks like kind of a dagger, but actually, its practical application is similar to club use. This weapon has no blade or cutting edge, so it is not intended for slashing but rather for striking. The top* (saki) is dull, which implies that it was not designed for causing mortal wounds. The main purpose of this weapon is to hurt and repulse an attacker. Above the handle (tsuka), there is a hand guard (yoku) especially shaped for not only protecting the hand, but also for catching the opponent’s weapon and disarming as well."

I know about that site you know. Again, it shows several techniques where the sai is clearly used as a piercing weapon.

From the Daredevil screenplay: <snip>

So, what you're saying is that sais in heroic fantasy - the same genre as DnD - are usually used as piercing weapons? Hmm.

I blame Frank Miller's Daredevil run for further exacerbating this misconception..

Actually, Elektra uses her sais as bludgeoning weapons quite a lot in the comic. (No doubt due to the comics code...) And I suspect that Frank Miller did some research - re-reading some of my old Daredevil comics I recognized several of the moves in the above link.

In D&D I'd recommend the sai remain a bludgeoning weapon, as that's how they are made and used..

Many sais are made (and used) as both a piercing and bludgeoning weapons.

I'd also recommend any prospective sai masters to pick up the "Throw Anything" feat from S&F if they really want to glom onto the whole thrown sai schtick.

Sais are already thrown weapons.

 

[Skinwalker]

Just to put in my 2cp as another Kobudo practitioner...

I don't know what the criteria are for a weapon crossing over categories, but to me the sai seems a good candidate. Before they were ever used as weapons, the sai were used as a farming implement to pierce the ground. As a practitioner, I have both pierced and bludgeoned with them. Come to think of it, I have *been* both pierced and bludgeoned with them as well, but that is another story.

 

[Zhure]

So, what you're saying is that sais in heroic fantasy - the same genre as DnD - are usually used as piercing weapons? Hmm.

Nah, that was the movie cite, not the heroic fantasy cite.

For game balance reasons, I recommend each particular sai have only one specific use (either piercing or bludgeoning). Otherwise there's no mechanical reason for a monk character to wield a nunchaku or siangham. Maybe a feat to do both?

As for them being thrown weapons, um, sure, that's the new rules and it's the rules forum, but I dislike it for the same reason I don't want to see sai as both bludgeoning and piercing. No real mechanical reason for a monk to take siangham or nunchaku. With Throw Anything, at least it becomes more palatable to me.