D&D 3E/3.5 The 3.5 sai - a piercing and/or bludgeoning weapon?

Zhure

First Post
My favorite 'sai origin' story is they were blacksmith's 'tongs.' The Pitchfork Theory, the Weeding Implement Theory, the Planting Tool Theory are all suspect as far as I'm concerned. I tend to think they were metal batons first and foremost, designed as weapons. I've no way of proving that though. :)
 

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Caliban

Rules Monkey
Iku Rex said:
(That's not very specific.)

Show me specific references for them being sharpened or piercing weapons, outside of recent comic books or film.

I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I am saying that I've never actually seen or heard of a "sharp" sai, but I've seen and heard of many blunt ones.

What do you have to support sais being sharp an pointy, other than someone saying they look kinda pointy?
 

Iku Rex

Explorer
Caliban said:
What do you have to support sais being sharp an pointy, other than someone saying they look kinda pointy?
Why do I have to support sais being sharp and pointy? I have supported sais being used as piercing weapons. That's what this discussion is about. I have never claimed to have any special insight regarding how "historical sais" looked.

Sais were and "are" used to pierce the opponent (as well as to "bludgeon" them). A typical crossbow bolt isn't needle tipped either, but they still deal piercing damage.
 

Bagpuss

Legend
This link http://home1.gte.net/fannin/shaolin/sai.htm talks of the three Sai illustrated below.

sai.jpg


Two of them are over 100 years old and are traditional chinese sai, cast out of iron. The 3rd is a modern Sai, which is lighter in weight. All three are blunt tipped. But even blunted I would say pushed with enough force they could be used to pierce the skin, but that isn't what they are designed for.

Although Sai can indeed be thrown (in fact the site mentions that it was common to carry three (a spare in case you threw one) the idea was more like throwing a rock at someone as nearly all the weight is in the handle so it isn't balanced to go in tip first.
 

Tellerve

Registered User
Caliban said:


Last I check looking pointy and actually being pointy were two different things. :)

WARNING WARNING slippery slope!!

:) There is a can of worms there I just don't even wanna open. I'm still waiting for you all to figure out the morningstar thing, as I feel that is a real lynchpin in this discussion. If they had made the morningstar just blunt, I'd probably be happy and take my blunt sai and shut up, but they didn't....soo, B/P sai huzzah!

Tellerve
 


Tellerve

Registered User
I have no idea. I've never heard of it before 3.0 came out, and I think it is a made up weapon. Or just so horribly lame of a weapon that its use has not kept up with any martial art form of today; unlike all the other weapons a monk uses.

Tellerve
 

takyris

First Post
But Tellerve, the morningstars that I've seen have actual spikes on them. Perhaps you and I are thinking about two different things, but if that's what you're using for your case for making sais piercing damage, I think it's a stretch.

If you're thinking of a morningstar as just a different-shaped mace with knobby bits on it, then yeah, it ought to be just bludgeoning. But if you're thinking of a metal ball with spikes, then it NEEDS to be piercing, while the sai, which doesn't actually have a piercing point, does not.

Like I said: my stick techniques could make you think "piercing" when I do them, but they're bludgeoning. If someone can point me at a movie of someone doing sai techniques that they feel are piercing rather than bludgeoning, I'd be happy to take a look. My guess, though, is that they're pressure-point bludgeoning, aiming at the temple or the solar plexus to stun someone or knock the wind out of them, not to impale the dude on the weapon.

Iku Rex/Zhure, care to cite any source? All the martial artists I talked to said that the sai was originally a gardening implement. The "forger's tongs" thing is new to me, too, but it's also possible. Are you also arguing against the 'chucks as originally being rice flails, too, and the tonfa as originally being, shoot, I forget, the handle or something on a mill?

Personally, in my opinion and from my research as a martial artist, the "adapted from tools" theory holds more water for me than the "forged specifically as a weapon" theory.

At the time when these weapons were being used, anything that could be definitively classified as a weapon would have gotten the peasent carrying them killed. It was to their advantage to use things that had real purposes, so that they could say, "What, me, inciting unrest? No, I'm just carrying my gardening tools back home."

Beyond the legal stuff, they just didn't have the resources to go around designing weapons on the spot. Most martial arts weapons were adapted from common household items because that's all they had, and if the local samurai decided to play "test the sword on the peasant", the peasant's gardening tools were all he had to defend himself with.

Besides, the sai, while good against a sword, is nowhere near as good as, say, A SWORD (speaking as someone who's used both against both). If I had the resources to design a weapon from scratch, I'd make the epitome of weapondom -- a sword -- not a small club with hooks that could sort of defend against a sword okay if you had the right training. :)
 

Tellerve

Registered User
takyris-

I agree that the sai probably came from a farming implement. As a lot, LOT of weapons of from Asia came from that background, also one of the reasons martial arts throughout the world were often created. Because the leaders didn't want the people having weapons, so they either developed a way to use things they had, flails, staffs, scythes/kamas, etc etc or they developed techniques to use their bodies. EDIT: I see you basically hit this point, I um...err ahh, just repeating for effect :)

Secondly, yes I'm talking about the morning star with the pointy, ohh look POINTY bits on it. Just like the really really long pointy bit on a sai. Truthfully I never knew that sai's were used butt/pommel first until the webpage above showed it. I don't and don't pretend to know how to use a sai in real life. Hence I thought the pointy end was the exclusively used part. EDIT: There are morningstars with chains and ones without. Either for my purposes in DND I believe are labeled as having B/P, which I don't get why they get to be but the sai doesn't.

Yes a morningstar has pointy bits, but mainly it the huge ball of iron/steel that carried the impact. It wasn't a precision weapon, you beat in the general are of the body with the weapon. I've seen real morningstars and the tips weren't especially sharp. I'm sure they would puncture skin and flesh since they have a lot of force behind them. The same should be said for the sai. I have a longsword, which sadly isn't as sharp as I'd like, but it is sharp on both sides and not overly sharp at the end. I do think you could run someone through with it, however. But, seeing as the way the weapon looks, is weighted, and was designed, it wouldn't be typically done that way until the guy was on the ground and you had an open opportunity. In stead you'd use that long blade to slash at them. A recreated drusus (did i spell that right?) roman short sword I saw when I was in Madrid was really dull on the sides but really really sharp and very pointy at the tip. It was stout and solid and obviously for jabbing at people. The sai has a really long very thin point that cries out to use physics and push it easily into peoples bodies, and through armor joints (what they said it was used for in the website that seems a lot more knowledgeable that any of us). How it was also seen to be used allows me to understand where they mean it is bludgeoning (from the pommel strikes).

The argument that a staff could be shoved into someone is a stretch in my opinion, because the end of a staff doesn't end in a point, it doesn't decrease in size along its length. Also, the nature of a staff, being that it is so large/long and yet has no good pointy tip shows that it was used how we all know it to be used, as a bashing/bludgeoning weapon. A sai, smaller, the size of a good large dagger or short sword follows that it could much more easily be made to jab at people.

Tellerve
 
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