D&D 3E/3.5 The 3E Anti-Power Creep thread (or... ideas for running lower-powered 3E games)

[Ace]

What I do for lower (but not Grim) games

AC Bonus for level -- ala Wheel of Time

XP- 3 to 5 sessions to level up

Spells- Maximum of 1/2 of all levels may be in a spell casting class

either Grim N Gritty rules or Wounds Vitality---

Thats about all you need rules wise

 

[A'koss]

Originally posted by Afrodyte:

An idea I saw someone use a while back was to have HD determined by size instead of class: d6 for small creatures, d8 for medium, and d10 for large. I don't know how well that playtested, but I thought it was an interesting idea I should share with you.

Heh, I've actually heard this idea in every edition. I've actually head it suggested that you could literally reduce all classes in 3e to a standard BAB, Save and HP accrual and by the time you hit 20th level all the distinctions you'd expect would be there...

Originally posted by Gothmog:

1) Spell DCs should be 10 + spell level + 1/2 caster level. That way, spell DCs scale with level, with more potent caster's spells being harder to resist. Also, it evens out the save DCs across levels so they tend to scale better with advancement. I have used this one since 3E came out.

I like it. This is what I'm talking about - predictable levels of power. The only thing you're going to have to adjust is Saves. A 20th level caster has a Save DC of 20 + SL. A typical 20th level character's weak save is something like +13 (+6 lvl +5 magic +2 weak stat).

Originally posted by Alchemist:

Personal growth items, particularly ones that are implicitly tied to the character. The item is a normal item in the hands of others, but is magical when he uses it. NPC's can still be equipped with some magic gear and the DM dosen't have to concern himself with it falling into PC's hands. It might mitigate looting as well, as there's little benefit to it if there's no expensive goodies to take and use/sell.

This is another good idea and I've seen a d20 product on this very recently but the name escapes me. It had to do with swords that you would gain a kind of PrC in, in order to activate increasingly better powers out of it. I've seen other implementations as well - characters expending XP in their weapons to improve them, etc... Might be a good way to slow down advancement. All magic items require XP to "attune" you to them.

IOC, we're experimenting with "sculpt self" style enhancements instead of the usual MI hording. Magic items are very rare, but usually very good. There may be only 1 or a small handful of many of the misc. magic items in the DMG. The Ring of Shooting Stars for example...

I like your ideas on class advancement on the surface, but I'm a little wary of the implications. You're essentially looking to go back to 1st/2nd edition, when everything (except for spellcasting) stopped dead at 10th level. I'm not certain I like that. Perhaps re-distributing the bonuses a class provides over 20 levels to mirror the proposed advancement would be better, and wouldn't make it feel like you're powering up through the first 10 levels and then slowly expanding for the last 10. Just smooth the curve out a bit, if that makes any sense.

If it works out in the end to be the same, I'm all for it Alchemist. In fact, I like it alot. When I first heard the idea of cutting things back I basically balked until I had it really explained to me. There is only a certain amount of latitude the game will allow before things just go astray. Find the maximum amount of latitude, then make sure that you can't increase the disparity between the classes any more. That means, at some point, you have to make sure that everyone is reduced to the same progression in the key areas of the game (BAB, Saves, HP). Even small disparities will come back to haunt you later.

It seems like nerfing on the surface, but by the time it actually happens, you have everyone where you want them to be power-wise.


Cheers,

A'koss.

 

[Alchemist]

This is another good idea and I've seen a d20 product on this very recently but the name escapes me. It had to do with swords that you would gain a kind of PrC in, in order to activate increasingly better powers out of it. I've seen other implementations as well - characters expending XP in their weapons to improve them, etc... Might be a good way to slow down advancement. All magic items require XP to "attune" you to them.

That's pretty much what I've proposed, in that one expends XP to power up an item, up to a limit of a fraction of your total xp.

IOC, we're experimenting with "sculpt self" style enhancements instead of the usual MI hording. Magic items are very rare, but usually very good. There may be only 1 or a small handful of many of the misc. magic items in the DMG. The Ring of Shooting Stars for example...

Here's a couple of feats of mine for my game. They're untested and a little rough. Feedback is appreciated.

Infuse Item (General)
Prerequisites: Character Level 4+
Benefit: The individual has unlocked the secrets of item enhancement. He may now expend experience points to add magical abilities to any masterwork item he owns. The item is a normal, non-magical item to anybody else who uses it. For the enhancement to work, the item must be masterwork. Enhancements cost 1/5 of the DMG cost in xp, so a +1 Wounding dagger costs 3600 xp to create. The character may start with a lesser item, say a +1 dagger, which would cost 400xp and upgrade with more powers, paying the difference, so adding Wounding to the +1 dagger would cost 3200xp. This process may be done with all permanent magic items that the character may wish to create, up to a maximum of 2, and to a maximum expenditure of 1/10th of a character’s xp. This feat may be taken multiple times.

Infuse Self (General)
Prerequisites: Infuse Item, Character Level 10+
Benefit: The character may now infuse himself with magical power, enhancing any weapon or armour he uses. The cost is ¼ of the DMG price in xp. This feat reduces the tie a character may have to his equipment, as any equipment will now fill the gap. This feat may be used with one “item”; either your armour slot or your weapon (either ranged or melee) slot. This feat is applied in the same manner as Infuse Item in all other respects.

These feats are meant to allow anybody to infuse an item with power, and isn't limited to arms and armour as the example might suggest.

 

[Tonguez]

I too use Story XP with a similar system to Gothmog

I use the VP/WP system

Also Healing turns Damage into Subdual (rather than straight healing) and allows it to heal as subdual damage

Spell recovery at 1 day/spell level before it can be used again (ie it takes 9 days to recover a level 9 spell, 2 days to recover a lL2 spell and 1 day to recover a L1 spell)

And a Spellcraft Check needed to cast spells DC = 10+(spell level x5)

 

[A'koss]

Alchemist, I like the feats. I might personally make it a little easier to take, but it could be entirely appropriate for the style of game you're running. I'm still not entirely sure how to mete out the XP costs for such boosts for my game because I need them to be common enough to replace a large chunk of magic items that simply don't exist in the campaign. I don't need to go too overboard though, our classes allow you to choose your own class abilities from a much larger list at regular intervals (similar to d20 Modern talents).

So I may play around with the numbers and see how it goes. IOC, we're trying the idea that any adventuring class has the ability to "sculpt self", but it is limited in what kinds of powers you can gain. Ours is a Norse-style campaign so naturally the powers reflect that.

On a side note, I think Healing might be better served removing it from the spell lists and creating a "Healing Ability" for the Cleric-types that would heal a number of HD/day. A cleric healing a wizard for 10 dice gives him 10d4+Wiz's Con in HP, while the fighter gains 10d10+Ftr's Con... I've always found proportional healing to be far more logical. I'd also allow Clerics the option to "overburn", taking temp Con or perhaps subdual damage towards additional healing.


Cheers,

A'koss.

 

[Psion]

Here's what I do.

The fundamental of the XP system, AFAIAC, is to advance the characters at a certain rate. Now it can serve the purpose of rewarding players for desired behavior, but if you try to build a system comosed of enumerated rewards:

1. It becomes harder to control the rate of advancement you desire for campaign purposes, and:
2. You add a lot of accounting overhead as you strive to record each instance of actions on your "magic list."
   [/list=1]
   
   This being the case, I extablish the base advancement rate and assign percentage modifiers.
   
   I use the baseline in the DMG to define my starting point. Per the DMG, if you award 75 xp/hour per level, the rate of advancement should be similar to what it is under the CR system. IME, this isn't QUITE true since encounters that really take one hour are typically EL>party level and encounters at below average EL take less time. As a result, I think D&D progression is FASTER than the theoretical under the CR system.
   
   At any rate in my old campaign, I scale the baseline back to 50 xp / hour per level. Then I allow % modifiers (in 5-10% blocks) for:
   1. Difficulty of the session (this method has much more flexibility than the CR method, as it counts diffulty NOT directly arising from the power of the creatures).[list[
   2. Interesting roleplaying or characterization.
   3. Pushing the game forward (usually by clever ideas or deduction.)
   
   In my latest game, I decided I wanted a progression more like older editions where at higher levels you advance slower, so what I did was change the baseline from 50 xp per level per hour to 75 xp x (level ^ .5) per hour. This maximizes time in the "sweet spot" of 6th-10th level.

 

[kengar]

This is the "Story-Based" XP handout I give my players. Pretty similiar to what's been written here:

Story Award XP
Sources of XP in play-
Overcoming challenges while working towards a goal.
Examples:
-"Relevant" combat
-Gathering Information/Clues
-Forming Strategies/Tactics
-Solving Puzzles/Mysteries

-XP earned for overcoming these challenges will depend on two main criteria;
1) How difficult the challenge was, and
2) How much overcoming the challenge mattered to achieving a goal.

Factors taken into account might include: physical risk (combat, traps, etc.), DC of any skill checks or saves necessary (Will Save, Bluff, Search), etc. This is left largely up to the DMs judgement, but the rate of character progression from level to level shouldn't be too different from using Combat-based (CR) XP rewards.

Roleplaying and "Story support."
Examples:
-Actions and decisions consistent with character and goals.
-Keeping player and character knowledge distinct.
-"Flavor" injections into game (Speaking in character, etc.).

XP earned for RP is not as much as for challenges and goals, but actions wildly inconsistent with a character's personality, etc. will lessen the value of any stated goals. Also, the campaign will be taking stated PC goals into account, so playing a character
consistently will give them more goal-related adventures and thus more opportunities for XP awards. The criteria for determining awards for RP will be based primarily upon how consistently your character is played "to concept" and making an effort at "fitting" the character into the campaign world.

Achieving Goals.
Examples:
-Story/Campaign goals set by DM. i.e. Finishing a quest, etc.
-Party goals. i.e. Triumphing over a rival group of adventurers.
-Personal goals. i.e. Defeating archfoe, attaining noble rank, etc.

Goals are defined in part by the DM when he makes the adventures and setting. Some goals are defined by the party as they play (i.e. Get items the wizard needs to set up his lab so he can make magic items for the group.). Others are defined by the players when they design their characters (Avenge their father's death, become a knight, marry their childhood sweetheart, etc.). PC-design goals are usually longer term goals. "Get a big-a$$ sword!" isn't really a goal. "Retrieve the ancestral blade of my clan (after killing the thief messily)!" is a goal.

Feel free to use or abuse as you wish.

 

[kengar]

Oh, and Jeph? One Massive Damage rule that I've always liked was 2xCON damage = Fort Save v. DC (10+ damage over 2xCON) or fall to -1hp. This does three things that I like:

1) Ties how likely the "system shock" is to the character's CON.
2) Ties how hard it is to resist to the damage dealt.
3) Replaces "Instant Death" with "Unconscious and Dying"; which I find keeps it from being too harsh on the PCs.

All this can be "tweaked" to suit the "grimness" of your campaign.

 

[widderslainte]

I have been thinking about using the Reflex Save as a defensive bonus instead of the Dex bonus to AC (sinceit's already included). Probably would have to increase the armoour limits on the bonus though.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

adjusting to magical boosts

One idea I'd been toying with for a while would be forcing characters to have an adjustment time/penalties for stat up spells. If you think about it, suddenly increasing your intelligence by 25% or so is going to be a bit of a shock to your system. A sudden increase in physical speed or strength could cause an "overshoot" effect until you get used to it. Major changes in perception (wisdom) would be very distracting. And thats before the "just got out of the pool after an hour of floating around" feeling you must get when the boosts wear off.

So one house rule to both cut down on power level (because people wouldn't be casually doubling their str before the fight) and encourage roleplaying would be to enforce adjustment to stat or movement boosts. You just raised your int by 5 points? You're stunned for d4 rounds while you adjust to the speed your brain's moving at and force yourself to focus on the boring problems at hand. Go from an 8 to a 14 wisdom? You're temporarily at a negitive to your spot checks because of how distracted you are by your new perception of mundane things. ("wow, have you ever really LOOKED at the silver weave on these elven cloaks?" "uh, no bob, but maybe you should be looking for orcs instead." "Sure, I'll check the plains - oh HEY! I can tell that a stream runs there in the wet season, look at the way the grass is different along that line!" "Er, thats great bob, but are there any-URK!")

Hangover effects when boosts wear off would be just as helpful, and really make characters think before 'buffing'. (and heaven help the thief who's gotten all used to his gloves of dex +6 and wanders into a antimagic field).

-kahuna Burger