D&D 4E The 4e PHB : Cheesecake Y/N?
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Wyrmshadows
Explorer
That butt-ugly beast on the PHB certainly is not a dragonborn. Its definately a tiefling. Yeah in the old days we'd call something with that much demon it is a cambion...literally a half-demon.
That monstrosity wouldn't be able to set foot in most civilized regions of any of the published settings without either illusion or shapechange magic to hide his true appearance. He screams devil so bad, that I might as be looking at ol' Asmodeus himself. In fact I have seen demon/devil art that makes full blooded fiends look less demonic/devilish than this.
It appears that this race is pretty unapologetic about its nature and walks openly and confidently amongst others. That might work in the POL non-setting, but outside of Thay in FR, in nearly all of Eberron, Krynn, Midnight, etc. they would be trailed by angry mobs with torches and pitchforks or at the very least have would-be heroes looking to "kill the demon" on sight. Anything less is pretty much D&D as Star Trek.
They are way, way too demonic IMO for a core race assumed to be populace and somewhat common at least in comparison to other monsterous races.
Wyrmshadows
That monstrosity wouldn't be able to set foot in most civilized regions of any of the published settings without either illusion or shapechange magic to hide his true appearance. He screams devil so bad, that I might as be looking at ol' Asmodeus himself. In fact I have seen demon/devil art that makes full blooded fiends look less demonic/devilish than this.
It appears that this race is pretty unapologetic about its nature and walks openly and confidently amongst others. That might work in the POL non-setting, but outside of Thay in FR, in nearly all of Eberron, Krynn, Midnight, etc. they would be trailed by angry mobs with torches and pitchforks or at the very least have would-be heroes looking to "kill the demon" on sight. Anything less is pretty much D&D as Star Trek.
They are way, way too demonic IMO for a core race assumed to be populace and somewhat common at least in comparison to other monsterous races.
Wyrmshadows
mhacdebhandia
Explorer
You seem to assume, quite unnecessarily, that the "core look" for tieflings in Fourth Edition will automatically be the look for tieflings in the Forgotten Realms, Eberron, and other established settings.Wyrmshadows said:
It's no more reasonable or accurate to assume that than to assume that Eberron's drow were marked with their black skin and white hair as a sign of Lolth's favour, given that Lolth and the rest of the Fourth Edition backstory simply does not and cannot exist in Eberron.
Besides which . . . if the setting books say humans and dwarves and elves don't soil themselves at the sight of large-horned tieflings, then they simply don't.
comrade raoul
Explorer
Personally, I'm just bored. This is probably the second-weakest Player's Handbook cover ever, after the super-boring 1995 2e revision. (Compare it to the 3e covers--mysterious! cool!--the first 2e cover--exciting!--or the first 1e cover--fun! lo-fi!
Wyrmshadows said:
I find it hard to believe that they'd work in a PoL setting either. PoL implies small, provincial settlements with a correspondingly provincial outlook. Dragonborn might be tolerated; their reputation as a "good guy race" could outweigh the fact that they look like the very same monsters that make it so dangerous to set foot outside one's home town.
But tieflings? A race that not only looks like it's descended from fiends, but that actually is descended from fiends and everybody knows it? With long horns that couldn't possibly be concealed under a hat or hood, and long tails that would be hard to hide even under the billowiest of robes? That's a great way to get yourself burned at the stake. If humans would do that to other humans (and they did), they'd certainly do it to tieflings.
This is why I'm reflavoring tieflings to look essentially human, so they can hide what they are.
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Baron Opal
First Post
I pretty offended. I mean, really, just look at that sword. Completely impractical, she would have to have wrists the size of her thighs.
... what?
... what?
Nyeshet
First Post
Regarding my earlier statement of the races on the cover ...
I have not kept up with all updates on what 4e will be like (as, for a while, it seemed to change week to week - sometimes seemingly contradicting earlier statements), so I had not yet seen the dragonborn pics. However, when I looked at the cover of the PHB, I noticed a male with horns, scaly skin, and a reptilian tail, and so I presumed he was dragonborn. The female, on the other hand, looked mostly human except for two small horns on her head, so I presumed tiefling (as in 3e tieflings were said to have only one or two minor features that betrayed their nature, the better to slip unnoticed amongst humans). I realize my mistake now. (Although I still find it hard to view those things on her head as anything other than little forward pointing horns.)
That said, I am becoming more confused as to how WotC expects mixed settlements to exist in PoL setting. Tieflings that look mostly human could fit in without much trouble. They look human enough that hair-trigger fight / flight reactions are not going to be triggered upon seeing them, and if the townspeople get to know them first, they may not attack or flee even if they learn of the being's fiendish heritage.
But a tiefling that looks like a fiend recently raised straight from hell through some horrific evil rite is another story. At least elves, dwarves, halflings, and gnomes look mostly human. 4e Tieflings (and Dragonborn, for that matter) look more akin to the trolls and lizardfolk that bedevil their little flickering point of light settlement and slay those that wonder into the shadows around it. Even shifters and changlings (in their true form) look more human than these monstrous appearing tieflings and dragonborn.
In 3e and 3.5e I've often had (half-) orc characters - PC or NPC - treated with extreme suspicion if not outright hostility by whatever settlements they enter. Lizardfolk, half-dragons, half-fiends, and so forth were often treated far worse - from the minimum of refused service to at times being driven out of time by a blood-thirsty mob.
These races - the dragonborn and the tiefling - will similarly be viewed with unfriendly and even hostile attitude by most they meet. They simply look too monstrous to be trusted, and in a Points of Light setting this is even more true than in a more cosmopolitan and mixed setting.
Consider the following:
In a small self-sufficient town, built near the ruins of an ancient and tumbled castle, there recently came about several disturbing occurrences. A couple small children have disappeared while wandering near the edge of town. Strange death-pale wavering lights are at times seen in the woods - from the direction of the tumbled keep, but they vanish soon if followed. Rumors are starting to spread that some evil cult is perhaps at work. Perhaps signs of a cult once thought mere legend and horror story have begun to appear.
Then into town comes a band of adventurers. One amongst them looks to be a fiend from hell, another seems to be part man, part horrific reptilian beast - the type of monster mothers may have used to frighten children into good behavior while growing up, but now fully realized in a form that even gives adults a momentary shiver of apprehension.
Do the townspeople - frightened as they are by these recent, strange, and terrible occurrences - seek out the adventurers and request their aid? Or do they presume that these 'adventurers' are in fact members of the cult that has taken and likely slain their children, and no doubt seek far worse in the near future - perhaps now amongst them directly to scout out their weaknesses in preparation for take-over? Do they trust these adventurers - including the part-fiend and part-dragon amongst them - to deal with the evil cult and terrible monsters that they now believe to be plaguing them, or do they presume they are now in the presence of those (or [knowingly or unknowingly] agents of those) that have been terrorizing them and abducting their children - no doubt for foul and horrific evil rituals?
I don't know about you, but I expect pitchforks, fire, and ranged weaponry to be gathered as soon as the first townsman sees the adventurers coming and runs back to tell the rest of the town what is approaching them. I expect arrows, bullets (slings), and bolts to be hurled before any attempt at conversation is possible. If the party manages to get into town before a mob can gather, I expect a mob to form around them, an angry and vengeful mob - all because of how two of the party appear so inhuman and monstrous.
Be honest. Presume you are living in the dark ages in Europe, some mostly isolated village, seeped in superstitious beliefs in magic, fey, monsters, dragons, etc. Then something that looks like the Predator boldly walks (or rides) into town. Even presuming he comes with a group of three to five fully human mercenaries, how likely are you to not join any mob that forms to deal with such a potential menace? How likely are you to listen to their pleas that the fiendish appearing one is not evil? Especially if strange things have been happening recently?
Heck, in a PoL setting *any* outsider - even human ones - are going to be treated with caution if not hostility, at least at first. After all, even a nice (and human) face could hide an evil priest, a savage mercenary, a malign con-artist, a fiend or fey in disguise, etc. How much worse will they view faces so utterly monstrous in such a setting?
I have not kept up with all updates on what 4e will be like (as, for a while, it seemed to change week to week - sometimes seemingly contradicting earlier statements), so I had not yet seen the dragonborn pics. However, when I looked at the cover of the PHB, I noticed a male with horns, scaly skin, and a reptilian tail, and so I presumed he was dragonborn. The female, on the other hand, looked mostly human except for two small horns on her head, so I presumed tiefling (as in 3e tieflings were said to have only one or two minor features that betrayed their nature, the better to slip unnoticed amongst humans). I realize my mistake now. (Although I still find it hard to view those things on her head as anything other than little forward pointing horns.)
That said, I am becoming more confused as to how WotC expects mixed settlements to exist in PoL setting. Tieflings that look mostly human could fit in without much trouble. They look human enough that hair-trigger fight / flight reactions are not going to be triggered upon seeing them, and if the townspeople get to know them first, they may not attack or flee even if they learn of the being's fiendish heritage.
But a tiefling that looks like a fiend recently raised straight from hell through some horrific evil rite is another story. At least elves, dwarves, halflings, and gnomes look mostly human. 4e Tieflings (and Dragonborn, for that matter) look more akin to the trolls and lizardfolk that bedevil their little flickering point of light settlement and slay those that wonder into the shadows around it. Even shifters and changlings (in their true form) look more human than these monstrous appearing tieflings and dragonborn.
In 3e and 3.5e I've often had (half-) orc characters - PC or NPC - treated with extreme suspicion if not outright hostility by whatever settlements they enter. Lizardfolk, half-dragons, half-fiends, and so forth were often treated far worse - from the minimum of refused service to at times being driven out of time by a blood-thirsty mob.
These races - the dragonborn and the tiefling - will similarly be viewed with unfriendly and even hostile attitude by most they meet. They simply look too monstrous to be trusted, and in a Points of Light setting this is even more true than in a more cosmopolitan and mixed setting.
Consider the following:
In a small self-sufficient town, built near the ruins of an ancient and tumbled castle, there recently came about several disturbing occurrences. A couple small children have disappeared while wandering near the edge of town. Strange death-pale wavering lights are at times seen in the woods - from the direction of the tumbled keep, but they vanish soon if followed. Rumors are starting to spread that some evil cult is perhaps at work. Perhaps signs of a cult once thought mere legend and horror story have begun to appear.
Then into town comes a band of adventurers. One amongst them looks to be a fiend from hell, another seems to be part man, part horrific reptilian beast - the type of monster mothers may have used to frighten children into good behavior while growing up, but now fully realized in a form that even gives adults a momentary shiver of apprehension.
Do the townspeople - frightened as they are by these recent, strange, and terrible occurrences - seek out the adventurers and request their aid? Or do they presume that these 'adventurers' are in fact members of the cult that has taken and likely slain their children, and no doubt seek far worse in the near future - perhaps now amongst them directly to scout out their weaknesses in preparation for take-over? Do they trust these adventurers - including the part-fiend and part-dragon amongst them - to deal with the evil cult and terrible monsters that they now believe to be plaguing them, or do they presume they are now in the presence of those (or [knowingly or unknowingly] agents of those) that have been terrorizing them and abducting their children - no doubt for foul and horrific evil rituals?
I don't know about you, but I expect pitchforks, fire, and ranged weaponry to be gathered as soon as the first townsman sees the adventurers coming and runs back to tell the rest of the town what is approaching them. I expect arrows, bullets (slings), and bolts to be hurled before any attempt at conversation is possible. If the party manages to get into town before a mob can gather, I expect a mob to form around them, an angry and vengeful mob - all because of how two of the party appear so inhuman and monstrous.
Be honest. Presume you are living in the dark ages in Europe, some mostly isolated village, seeped in superstitious beliefs in magic, fey, monsters, dragons, etc. Then something that looks like the Predator boldly walks (or rides) into town. Even presuming he comes with a group of three to five fully human mercenaries, how likely are you to not join any mob that forms to deal with such a potential menace? How likely are you to listen to their pleas that the fiendish appearing one is not evil? Especially if strange things have been happening recently?
Heck, in a PoL setting *any* outsider - even human ones - are going to be treated with caution if not hostility, at least at first. After all, even a nice (and human) face could hide an evil priest, a savage mercenary, a malign con-artist, a fiend or fey in disguise, etc. How much worse will they view faces so utterly monstrous in such a setting?
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Arkhandus
First Post
Not gonna vote in this one because it's only about the might-be-a-placeholder PHB cover.
I don't have any problems with the PHB cover in that regard, but I despise it as an ugly and poorly designed piece of cover art.
It doesn't fit what the 4E D&D PHB cover should look like, it's got poor body posturing, and the character designs are just plain impractical (even Mialee's crappy outfit in the 3E books is less absurd, 'specially given that she's an aloof wizard and not meant to be worried about armor or fashion).
In any case, while I don't have any problem with the moderate amount of skin shown on the cruddy 4E PHB cover, I am opposed to there being any art in the D&D books that's more racy than that. Especially since WotC's trying (in vain, I feel, given the way they're going about it) to draw in more young folks, who'll probably still be spending their time playing World of Warcraft or something similar instead, anyway.
I don't have any problems with the PHB cover in that regard, but I despise it as an ugly and poorly designed piece of cover art.
It doesn't fit what the 4E D&D PHB cover should look like, it's got poor body posturing, and the character designs are just plain impractical (even Mialee's crappy outfit in the 3E books is less absurd, 'specially given that she's an aloof wizard and not meant to be worried about armor or fashion).
In any case, while I don't have any problem with the moderate amount of skin shown on the cruddy 4E PHB cover, I am opposed to there being any art in the D&D books that's more racy than that. Especially since WotC's trying (in vain, I feel, given the way they're going about it) to draw in more young folks, who'll probably still be spending their time playing World of Warcraft or something similar instead, anyway.
"Points of light" doesn't automatically equal "parochial dark age of ignorant huddling racist peasants who kill anyone who doesn't look like them."
It looks like WOTC intends one of the assumptions of the core setting to be that the typical person is familiar with the existence of other types of sentient humanoids. While a setting could include prejudice against tieflings, it doesn't necessarily have to. Remember, a tiefling is supposed to start out with relatively small physical abnormalities (horns, etc), which then grow more prominent if/when they obtain power. It wouldn't be beyond the pale for the typical person to be aware that sometimes people are born with little nubby horns, and that it doesn't mean anything.
It looks like WOTC intends one of the assumptions of the core setting to be that the typical person is familiar with the existence of other types of sentient humanoids. While a setting could include prejudice against tieflings, it doesn't necessarily have to. Remember, a tiefling is supposed to start out with relatively small physical abnormalities (horns, etc), which then grow more prominent if/when they obtain power. It wouldn't be beyond the pale for the typical person to be aware that sometimes people are born with little nubby horns, and that it doesn't mean anything.
Wyrmshadows
Explorer
Cadfan said:
However in a world were devils, demons and other supernatural horrors aren't merely the province of ignorant supersitition but are terrifyingly real, there is no such thing as being born with demonic characteristics and it being "no big deal, Jimmy has some little horns, smouldering red eyes and this little tail."
Little Jimmy would be a pariah, not because of some misplaced fear of the dark, but because in his veins runs the blood of beings of pure unmitigating evil. If in this hypothetical fantasy world there is even a lick of believability to human nature (or elven, dwarven, halfling, etc. nature) folks rightly fear what lurks beyond the light and Tieflings represent the terrible reality that yes, monsters of pure supernatural wickedness exist. Even if Jimmy is a nice guy he will have a huge mountain to climb in regard to social acceptance because his very existance will evoke primal fears in those he deals with.
Of course someone can run a D&D setting that is as cosmopolitan as Star Trek where no one notices differences and everyone just gets along because everyone is enlightened and understanding. However in Star Trek type milieus there is no deep, dark supernatural realm of perpetual horror like the abyss. I would bet that if for example the Klingons were a demonic race, even the oh-so-enlightened Federation wouldn't be all that understanding.
I see it this way. When a creature possesses the bloodline of creatures whose evil is such that normal mortal minds cannot even conceptualize it fully ie. demons or devils, this creature is going to perpetually be an outsider at best and hunted and killed at worst. Even though a loyal cadre of companions could come to accept a tiefling, no human, elven, dwarven, etc. community as a whole will even come close to accepting him.
If I recall directly in the Forgotten Realms, a pretty damn cosmopilitan setting IMO, Queen Alustriel refused admittance to Drizz't into the city of Silverymoon where she rules because even though she knew he was a hero, her people would never tolerate a drow in their city.
I can't conceive of a demon blooded humanoid being treated better than a drow. At least drow are understandable mortal evil elves. Drow are hated but regular humans can conceive of an evil elf with ebony skin. How many normal folks can really comprehend a human whose bloodline is that of the worst evil in the cosmos?
Wyrmshadows
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