D&D 4E The 4e Pit Fiend Revisited

[drjones]

Blowing up your 21st/22nd lvl allies for a fairly low amount of blast damage to PCs seems exceptionally wasteful and silly to me. Surely the legion/war devils will have more interesting uses/abilities/attack forms which can threaten PCs much more than just having them go boom?

You don't have to set up the encounter with just the big guy, in fact it is assumed you wont. Throw in a few low level devil artillery he keeps around just to use as hand grenades.

Not to mention if one of your lieutenants is failing badly teleport him into the middle of the part and blow him up, great way to punish him and the players and surprise the hell out of them!

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

More fully understanding how the mechanics work, the pit fiend looks a lot more effective... however, I still don't like it. The essential problem that I have is that it exemplifies the so-called streamlined monster design that the designers have bragged about:

The pit fiend has very few options. You might expect the fight to go something like:

Round 1: move or teleport, infernal summons, point of terror, spend that action point for an extra action: pit fiend frenzy.

After that, the only questions for the pit fiend is whether it is going to use point of terror or irresistable command as its minor action and whether it would rather pit fiend frenzy or charge as its attack action. So, once you've got past the first round, the pit fiend doesn't actually have many interesting options. In short, not only is every fight against a pit fiend going to be the same, but almost every round of every fight against the pit fiend is going to see the pit fiend doing the same thing. Compared to the flexibility of previous edition pit fiends, that's very weak sauce.

Secondly, I shudder to think of the number of ongoing effects to keep track of. At a minimum, we're looking at two location based effects (the auras) to be kept track of each turn, and two ongoing damage based effects (fire damage and the weakening and poison) to be saved against each turn. Add in the various marks for all of the pit fiend's summons and the other monsters in the combat, and I'm guessing that you're going to end up with at least two ongoing damage/save effects per character per round and probably at least one aura and mark per character per round. That's going to be a lot to keep track of--even more so because it will change every round and as characters and monsters move. Now, maybe it won't be as bad as it looks as I work my way up to epic tier 4th edition (assuming I play the game at all which is likely but not guaranteed at the moment), but it looks to me like anyone who couldn't handle DMing high level 3.5 edition, shouldn't bother playing epic tier 4th edition.

 

[DandD]

All these options you listed off at Round 1 are already more than enough to make it a fight that won't be always the same.

And of course, depending on who's accompagning the Pit Fiend, the synergy bonus his ally might confer to the Pit Fiend and his expendable troops might be even more interesting. Like let's say a Horned Devil Skirmisher with a very fancy title like "Soul Chainer", who has the ability to paralyze you with it's spiked chains, or the ability to summon other minions...

After all, the Pit Fiend is meant as an Elite Monster, not a Solo, and it's the Team Dynamism that can make battles entertaining and changing. Also, terrain is now more important for 4th edition.

How much brutal is the combat going to be, if you're fighting on an infinite (or at least really really deep) chasm, while the Pit Fiend is flying above you and sending its minions to explode at some weak-points, so that your whole party will fall down to its death?

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

The pit fiend has very few options. You might expect the fight to go something like:

Round 1: move or teleport, infernal summons, point of terror, spend that action point for an extra action: pit fiend frenzy.

After that, the only questions for the pit fiend is whether it is going to use point of terror or irresistable command as its minor action and whether it would rather pit fiend frenzy or charge as its attack action.

Hell, no. You are selling the pit fiend short, way short.

First round, of course, I summon 8 devil legionnaires. And I have with me two faithful demons (non elite) of my level to complete the party, including an artillery and a skirmisher. I set up a melee front just in front of me.

Second round, assuming the fiend is within 5 square of the front, I'd have him use tactical teleport (standard action) to move 2 allies 10 square away from him, behind the front line combatants, ideally in reach of the wizard but if not as close as possible. Just for and giggles. Weee.

Then I'd downgrade his move action to an extra minor action and I'd use point of terror twice on both of the toughest melee combattant (Say, the fighter and rogue). After that, of course, about six of my allies will swarm the poor guys with their AC now 5 points lower. I'll of course keep the pit fiend within 5 square of these guys so they can enjor his auras.

So in the same round, we've engaged the melee combatants and sent legionnaires against the wizard.

Next round I'd look out for any wounded devil that might not survive the next round. I'd let them attack first and then *Boom*. Say, twice, if necessary (Remember, up to three minor in one round). Then I'd go for point of terror again or perhaps some more tactical teleporting mayhem if it has recharged.

I'd keep harassing the PC like that and only engage when most of the legionnaires are dead.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

You're right that the Pit fiend's choice of four or five actions can still create tactically interesting situations, and that the combination of other monsters in the encounter will create different tactical situations. However, you are still left with a very limited set of options and in any two given fights, any two given pit fiends are likely to react similarly. What you don't have, compared to previous editions is a range of abilities (meteor swarm, fireball, blasphemy, unholy aura, etc) that enable a pit fiend to fill different roles in different combats or to effectively pursue different strategies. The pit fiend has a much more limited range.

Hell, no. You are selling the pit fiend short, way short.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

As opposed to the unlimited strategies of the 3e Pitfiend?

That guy was pretty straightforward too.

Hit them with the quickened fireball, the meteor swarm and the mass hold monster. After that? Melee baby. He has absolutely no other option that are worth foregoing a full round atack.

What are you gonna do instead of : 2 claws +30 melee (2d8+13) and 2 wings +28 melee (2d6+6) and bite +28 melee (4d6+6 plus poison plus disease) and tail slap +28 melee (2d8+6)?

I bet we'll find with experience that the 4e Pit Fiend is likely to avoid melee for longer than the 3e one.

 

[DandD]

You're right that the Pit fiend's choice of four or five actions can still create tactically interesting situations, and that the combination of other monsters in the encounter will create different tactical situations. However, you are still left with a very limited set of options and in any two given fights, any two given pit fiends are likely to react similarly. What you don't have, compared to previous editions is a range of abilities (meteor swarm, fireball, blasphemy, unholy aura, etc) that enable a pit fiend to fill different roles in different combats or to effectively pursue different strategies. The pit fiend has a much more limited range.

The Pit Fiend lost Meteor Swarm, and gained the ability to explode his minions for extra damage. Blasphemy and Unholy Aura as Debuff-effects are now somehow combined into his Point of Terror Attack. He can still teleport and fly around. He still has a gruesome melee offensive potential. Save-or-die effects like Power Word Stun have been put out of the game because nobody (or the really really big majority, at least, which is more important anyway) liked them and found them to be anti-climatic. Invisibility didn't do jack anyway at that level because everybody and their celestial dog used True Sight or dispelled it right away. The Pit Fiend can still grapple and constrict.

Apart from the immediate Save-or-die-effects, which have been put away for obvious reasons, the Pit Fiend didn't lose anything of great value. I mean, looking by the SRD, all the Pit Fiend did before was spamming Mass Hold Monsters or Power Word Stun, a quickened Meteor Swarm, and then repeat it time and time again with Fireballs, because it was the most perfect tactic.

The D&D 3.X-Pit Fiend wasn't that much more diverse in combat abilities, I'm afraid.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Now I think you're the one underestimating the options of the 3.x pit fiend. In addition to the spells that you mentioned, it also had a number of other options:

blasphemy, unholy aura, greater dispel magic, summon devils (2/day), wish (if the DM decides to use it in combat).

Blasphemy and unholy aura were both very good spells for supporting his allies (in fact, Blasphemy is positively broken, so I'm assuming some kind of a fixed version here that gives a save or otherwise doesn't simply daze the PCs every round until the Lemures summoned by the pit fiend kill the whole party). Greater dispel magic is one of the key abilities of high level 3.x play and will be useful at least once in a combat. Likewise, invisibility and persistent image are useful in setting up a combat, even if generally not worth a round of actions inside combat.

And that's without exploring the other combat options that the pit fiend has in conjunction with his attacks--trip/disarm/sunder, and grapple/improved grab.

Whether the 4e pit fiend can avoid melee for longer than the 3.x one isn't really the question (though I'm not quite sure why the 4e pit fiend would want to avoid melee for all that long--it just wants to avoid melee with the party's main fighters). I would think the question is whether the pit fiend has more meaningful options that enable it to fill different roles in 3.5 and 4.0. And I think it's clear that a 3.5 pit fiend can fill a role as a controller (and a role as artillery for one or two rounds) as well as as a melee combatant while the 4e pit fiend is a soldier monster, pure and simple.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Now I think you're the one underestimating the options of the 3.x pit fiend. In addition to the spells that you mentioned, it also had a number of other options:

blasphemy, unholy aura, greater dispel magic, summon devils (2/day), wish (if the DM decides to use it in combat).

I didn't mention summons devil because 4e Pit fiend has it, and it seems more powerful. In fact, considering is leadership potential, we know that they are more powerful.

I didn't mention greater dispel magic because it's a bad choice. First of all, the Pitfiend is a 18th level caster fighting typically level 18 to 20 spellcasters (He's CR 20). That means he'll be rolling 1D20+18 to beat DC 29 to 31. 55% to 45% odds of success on each spell. Whether he goes for the wide effect (one spell on each PC in the area) or the targeted version, he's wasted his round and probably lost the fight. Busting on average two or three buffing spells isn't going to compensate for the damage the PC will deal unanswered this round and you'll likely lose the fight. Bad cost of opportunity.

Blasphemy is centered on you. Unless the PCs gather in tight formation (An habit that is breaken around level 10 at worst), talk about a waste of time. You spend your action to daze all the melee fighters around you. They don't attack this round but neither do you and the fiend was presumably the toughest melee fighter present anyway. Meanwhile the Wizard and possibly an archer or cleric (depending on the style of the troop) have hit you with their best shot. Can't make that trade off too often. Bad cost of opportunity.

Unholy Aura is actually nice, tough his spell resistance of 32 trumps the one gained from the spell which means you are essentially sacrificing one round to gain +4 to AC (significant) and +4 to save (less significant, you were already going to make most of your saves anyway). Is it worth it? All in all... probably not. You've just given the whole team a free round. Unless of course you prepped in advance but then it's not relevanrt to tactics. Probably a bad cost of opportunity, depending on how powerful and appropriately equipped the party's fighter (and archer, if there is one).

Bottom line, focus on Meteor Swarm, Mass Hold monster and Melee attack. And the PCs know that, wich mean even the first two actions might be less optimal than good old full attack.

You can get get creative but you are making bad tradeoff as the cost of opportunity is too high. The 20th level PCs are going to deal tons of damage. One PC needs to be taken out as fast as possible to equalize the odds. Any action that isn't geared toward that immediate goal cost you just too much.

 

[DandD]

Or in other words, the 3.X-Pit Fiend hasn't much more compared to the 4.0-Pit Fiend. Yay.