The adept class

[helium3]

How is adding 6 levels of sorcerer or 8 of adept to a frost giant going to increase it's CR by 3?

The monster manual says that adding class levels that play to a monster's strengths add +1 to CR for every class level and +1 to CR for every two levels of a class that does not do that. So, it's presumed that levels of fighter and barbarian play to a frost giant's strengths whereas the ability to cast magical spells does not.

Personally, I think this isn't a very useful way to get a feel for the CR of a monster build and always assume a 1 for 1 relationship. Most classes are pretty durned useful in any combat situation. It's what they're mainly designed to do.

 

[satori01]

In 3.0 it was always assumed to be a 1 for 1 basis, which can lead to CR disparities. +2 CR over average party level is an encounter that is supposed to be twice as hard as an ecounter of appropriate level. Thus for a 4 person 4 level party a CR 6 creature is considered twice as powerful.

I frankly do not think a frost giant with 2 fighter levels is twice as powerful as a regualr CR 9 Frost Giant. I certainly dont think a Frost Giant with 2 levels in Sorcerer is equal to a Frost Giant with 2 fighter levels, it doesnt matter how many grease or magic missle spells he or she has.

So I am glad for that change, which basically alerts the DM to use ones own judgement.

 

[Baragos]

Didn't know about that rule, mainly because I haven't read the "unimportant" parts of the Monster Manual I guess

 

[Psion]

Am I the only one "bothered" by the adept NPC class?

Nope.

They claim the class can do duty as a cloistered priest, but it is really written as sort of a shaman. But if shaman gets treatment in the game, they deserve PC class treatment IMO. As you note, full clerics lack several capabilities they have.

Green Ronin's Advanced Gamemaster's Guide has a adept variant that splits the adept spell list into two so it can REALLY do the job the claim it can. Meself, I just kick it to the curb and use Green Ronin Shaman for tribal spellcasters.

 

[the Lorax]

Which is why they are NPC classes and count as Class level -1 for CR purposes as opposed to Class Level = +CR or 1/2 Class level = +CR for non associated classes. They are not supposed to be in the same league.
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I'm not really concerned with the balance of classes for CRs, because the value of CRs is not a fixed thing - its is an estimation.

What I was talking about was that when you have enough XPs to get a new level, using them to gain a level of ANY of the NPC classes is clearly a wasted level. Any character needs to spend the same number of XPs to gain a level regardless of what class is taken. I'd like to see the NPC classes closer in value to the basic classes.

 

[satori01]

I'm not sure if that is a consideration that really needs to be taken into consideration, at least for most DMs. I am not generally assinging exp for what the villains do either offscreen or onscreen In general I am advancing the villians by what I need them to do.

If I want tougher ogre guards, guards that will take about three more hits then normal ogres, adding a couple of levels of Warrior is a quicker easier way then adding fighter levels or advancing monster hit dice. It also keeps CRs from advancing too high.

Most experienced players try to track the CRs of their monsters. Even if you have your players fighting a Frost Giant in a gigantic lava filled sauna room, and adjudicate it as a EL 5 encounter , many players will want a pretty detailed justification for why that is so. It may not be good sportmanship, but many players will ask.

So to me NPC class levels being inferior gives me a good range to go from say regualar ogre tribesman, to warrior classed Ogre soldiers, and then finally to fighter classed elite guards, and the orge chieftain with blackguard levels, and maintain a game consistient challenge base, and keep a good story base and world versmiltude with more advanced opponents being noticeably more difficult.

BTW I love your ICON.

 

[Buttercup]

I like the concept of the Adept, and use it as written in my games now and then, but with a bit of tweaking I think it could be ideal as the only spell casting class in a low magic, unsophisticated culture.

But then, IMC sorcerers can build their list of spells known from any spell in the game, as long as the player can explain how it fits the theme he announced for the character at creation.

 

[Zappo]

Dunno, a frost giant with haste, bull's strength, bear's endurance and displacement sounds pretty scary to me.

 

[Staffan]

Dunno, a frost giant with haste, bull's strength, bear's endurance and displacement sounds pretty scary to me.

If he's got haste and displacement, he's likely at least 6th level (to cast 2 3rd level spells). Using the "add half level for non-similar classes" rule, that makes him CR 12. CR 12 is pretty scary.

But do those things make him as nasty as a Marut (AC 34, 2 attacks for 2d6+12 plus 3d6 sonic/electricity plus deafening or blinding, SR 25, DR 15/chaotic, construct traits, Fast healing 10, a host of spell-like abilities including dimension door and greater dispel magic at will and chain lightning and circle of death 1/day)? OK, the Marut is something of a paper tiger due to only having 112 hp (but that's augmented by serious DR, fast healing, and immunity to crits), but I still think it would be much more dangerous to the average party than a frost giant with haste and displacement.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I ran a campaign once where any LA had to start with NPC classes equal to the LA. So your average Aasimar (+1 LA) would start with a level of Warrior or Aristocrat, and your average Githyanki (+1 LA) might start with a level of Warrior or Psychic.

I invented a good number of more specialized NPC classes for that campaign....it was an attempt to get rid of the "paper tiger syndrome" without making the PC's with LA too much more powerful than the PC's without it.

On-topic, I have no problem with the adept. It doesn't cast both arcane and divine spells any more than the Bard does. It casts divine spells. Some of those divine spells are Fireball. Just 'cuz clerics don't do it doesn't mean that no one should do it.