The Alignment Wars - my stance in the trenches

Edena_of_Neith

First Post
Here are my alignmental definitions:

Lawful Good: Such beings have a high regard for the value of life, and this shows in all their thinking and behavior. Such beings are very socially graceful, being adaptable and/or comfortable among different races and diverse cultures, and at ease among their own kind.

A lawful good being would be at ease among kender (from Dragonlance), treating them with courtesy and dignity, making friends of many of them, and otherwise getting along well with them. Being constantly robbed and talked to death, by said kender, would be something he could handle with grace and restraint, and the kender would consider him a top notch friend.

Saltheart Foamfollower and Lord Mhoram from the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, and Frodo Baggins and Samwise Gamgee, from LOTR, are lawful good characters.

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Neutral Good: Such beings have a high regard for the value of life, and this shows in all their thinking and behavior. Such beings have modest social skills and a modest ability to cope with different races and diverse cultures. Among their own kind, their reaction ranges from comfortable to estrangement.

A neutral good being would be ill at ease among kender, but would strive hard to be patient and understanding with them. He might or might not befriend some of them, his temper around them would range from congenial to angry, and being constantly robbed and talked to death would strain the limits of his social graces.

Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli, from LOTR, and the Archcleric of Veluna (as played by William in the 3rd IR) are neutral good characters.

- - -

Chaotic Good: Such beings have a high regard for the value of life, and this shows in all their thinking and behavior. They have little or no social etiquette, cannot cope with different races and diverse cultures, and are usually uncomfortable around their own kind.

A chaotic good character could not cope with kender, becoming frustrated, angry, and withdrawn as they robbed him and talked him to death. Under special circumstances, he might befriend one of them, or tolerate one or two of them. He would take pains not to hurt them, however.

Allanon from the Shannara books, Arilyn Moonblade from the FR Setting, and Linden Avery from the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, are chaotic good characters.

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Lawful Neutral: Such beings have little or no regard for the value of life. Others, except for a few select friends, can all go rot. Violence and killing is acceptable behavior under most circumstances. These beings are social animals, nevertheless, and blend in easily among different races and diverse cultures, and smoothly fit themselves in among their own kind.

A lawful neutral character would be well able to cope with kender, and remain patient and comprehensive of their nature. However, barring some special circumstances, friendship would not occur, and the person would contrive to get rid of said kender - either by sending them away, having them imprisoned or detained, or having them killed.

Judge Dredd (from the comic books) and Khelben Blackstaff Arunsun (from the FR Setting) are lawful neutral characters.

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Neutral: Such beings have little or no regard for the value of life. Others, except for a few select friends, can all go rot. Violence and killing is acceptable behavior under most circumstances. They have limited social skills, have difficulty in blending in among different races and diverse cultures, and among their own kind their reaction ranges from comfortable to estranged.

A neutral character would tolerate kender, with great difficulty, under special circumstances. Otherwise, antipathy and hostility is likely, leading to possible violence, and most certainly a breakup between the kender and said person.

John Carter, Warlord of Barsoom from the Edgar Rice Burroughs novels, and Conan the Barbarian from Hyboria, are neutral characters.

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Chaotic Neutral: Such beings have little or no regard for the value of life. Others, except for a few select friends, can all go rot. Violence and killing is acceptable behavior under most circumstances. They have little or no social grace, are unable to cope with different races and diverse cultures, and are uncomfortable among their own kind.

Except under special circumstances, anger, antipathy, violence, and even hatred are going to be the rule between kender and this person. No cooperation or friendship is going to be possible, and certainly no tolerance is going to be extended to the kender.

Gollum from LOTR, Elaith Craunobar (excuse the misspelling) from the FR setting, and Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, are chaotic neutral characters.

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Lawful Evil: These beings have a high regard for the taking of life, and enjoy witnessing death in all it's guises. Nevertheless, their social etiquette is considerable, they blend in easily among different races and diverse cultures, and they fit in well among their own kind.

This person will cope with kender easily. He will get along with them famously. He will have them removed, imprisoned, and/or killed at the first convenient opportunity.

Ariakan, Lord of the Knights of Takhisis from the Dragonlance setting, and Mina from the Dragonlance setting, are lawful evil characters.

- - -

Neutral Evil: These beings have a high regard for the taking of life, and enjoy witnessing death in all it's guises. Their social skills are truncated, they have trouble fitting in among different races and diverse cultures, and they may or may not be able to fit in among their own kind.

This person is likely to attack any kender, shortly after meeting the first one and discovering the nature of kender in general. Kill on sight will be the rule after that initial contact.
If forced to deal with kender non-violently, this person will be in pain, and will endeavor to minimalize contact with the little nuisances as much as possible.

Tzass Sam from the FR setting, Kymil Nemesin (pardon the spelling mistake) from the FR setting, Rary the Traitor from the Greyhawk Setting, the Emperor from Star Wars, Darth Vader from Star Wars, Sauron from LOTR, Saruman from LOTR, and many other famous villains are of this alignment.

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Chaotic Evil: These beings have a high regard for the taking of life, and enjoy witnessing death in all it's guises. They are antisocial, unable to cope or adapt to different races or diverse cultures, and uncomfortable even among their own kind.

It is unlikely that this person will choose, or allow himself to be forced, to deal with kender non-violently.
This person will learn to kill kender on sight, preferably in painful and horrific ways.
If somehow forced to deal with kender non-violently, this person will be unable to cope with the situation, and will withdraw into silence and his own world.

Larloch the Archlich from the FR setting, Iuz the Old One from the Greyhawk Setting, Smaug the Dragon from LOTR, and Lurtz from the film FOTR, are chaotic evil characters.

- - -

Any character of any alignment can believe in Balance, or oppose Balance.
Any character of any alignment can kill, destroy, or ruin ... the more good aligned the character, the less likely this is to happen.
Any character of any alignment can love, care, heal, help others in life, and so on ... the more evil aligned the character, the less likely this is to happen.
Any character of any alignment can inadvertently cause great harm or loss ... the more good the character is, the more pain he or she will suffer emotionally from this. The more evil the character, the more likely he or she is gain satisfaction or joy from the inadvertent disaster.

Very few people actually know what their own alignment is (other than paladins.)
Most people, are quite sure of what their own alignment is, and are usually quite wrong.
 

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Neutral character can have a high regard for life, they just also respect that death is part of life. I don't think your defination on Neutral is accurate.
 


Nuetral is about balance. There is good and there is evil. There is life and there is death. THere is order and there is chaos. Neutral is an understainding that for one, you need the other and too much of any one thing is bad.
 

With the exception of your final comments, I really disagree with your alignment definitions. For what very little that's worth, given they're your defs for use in your own campaign and all.

But, can you point to where in the PHB or anywhere else that links alignment with social skills!? ("Social grace")

The Errol Flynn version of Robin Hood would be CG or NG. So he must have had little social grace? Puhlease. A classic CG character might be untrustworthy and inclined towards a lack of government control but that does not mean that they cannot be socially graceful. And what about a rude, snide, uppity LG character? This is part of what Charisma represents, after all!

As far as LN is concerned... violence is acceptable under most circumstances? Errr... not if that's against the law. Judge Dredd would be LN, I suppose, but so would a judge or other person who strongly values law and orderly society (without going around hunting down criminals with massive amounts of violence).
 

My stance on Alignment.

I despise the D&D system of alignment and don't use it. A characters motives and actions dictate where he stands, not an abstract cosmic scale.
 

Apok said:
My stance on Alignment.

I despise the D&D system of alignment and don't use it. A characters motives and actions dictate where he stands, not an abstract cosmic scale.

Cosmic Scale? Alignment is defined by a characters actions. Alignment is not a straight jacket forcing characters to act in a certain way. On the contrary act like you want and then figure out what you are playing. One can play as different alignments different weeks, it's only certain classes that require certain types. Don't lose the system becasue it doesn't work, make it work for you.
 

My primary issue with the D&D alignment system is its inability to cope with certain issues. I'll take an example from fantasy literature; Vlad Taltos.

In D&D terms, what alignment would you classify him as? He is an assassin and has no compunction about killing people for money or for personal reasons. According to how D&D measures alignment, he would be Evil. But he's not. He seems to serve the House of Jhereg loyally, which indicates lawfulness, but he also has no compunctions against breaking those rules when necessary, which denotes a streak of the chaotic.

IMO, I would classify Vlad as Pragmatic. Sadly, I don't see a D&D alignment that would equate to one being Pragmatic. Yet another fictional character, Bruce Wayne aka Batman. What alignment is he? I know there was a thread circulating around a while back but I don't think any definite conclusion was made. Batman fights crime, which is lawful behavior but he does so outside of the established law. He's a vigilante, so he can't be lawful in alignment. However, he has a strict personal code that he follows which I wouldn't equate to a Chaotic person.

Needless to say, all of this supposition and discussion over what denotes lawful v. chatoic v. good v. evil behavior in an attempt to stick someone in a box just doesn't work for me. I also don't like the idea of someone's alignment changing for every action that they do. For example, if I had a character who saved a drowning child, extorted money from his local government, helped to stop a city-wide riot from occuring and assassinated a rival in the course of a single day, how many times will have his alignment shifted? Too many to even try & keep track of.

I know that actions dictate alignment, I'm not debating that. I am debating the fact that you can fit every possible personality type into 9 distinct categories. I prefer my morality in shades of grey, black & white when necessary. The standard D&D system just doesn't work for me.
 

First of all lawful and obeying the laws of the land are not the same thing. A LG Paladin does not have to or is expected to obey all the laws of a LE society. You can still have grey area in the 9 alignments. You pick the best one that fits, or you add little things like saying LN with evil tendincies.

I'm not that familair with Vlad, but it sounds like he's NE. Killing for money or personal reasons is evil. Following a code but sometime not following it is neutral.

Batman I think is LN with good or evil tendencies depending on at what point we are talking about.

These are of course my opinions, and can be argued. Alignments do not need to be absolute, it's just easier when it is. BOVD talks about that with the evil alignment.
 

Kendars? You mean those kleptomaniac chronically lawbreakers who tend to cause fights more often than an orc burps. They should get along well with lawful creatures and not with chaotic? I don't think I agree with you.
 

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