The awaken spell: playing God?

[Kaleon Moonshae]

Not sure if I agree with the previous post. I don't think it is as easy as saying "they'd get shot" and also who said they can't use tools? If they were awakened they could then take character classes, some would at least take levels in sorcerer or some such magic using class. That could very easily sub for tools and would give them the ability to make money which could buy tool users. I think you are being a little short sighted in dismissing the horses ruling the plains. Control does not nec rely on tool usage but more on knowing how to manipulate your world, which with intelligence and magic they could do. The quote leads one to believe that the horsemen waited too long to realize what was happening. If they had killed the first horse or even all of the second or third generation they may have been able to "shoot them" as you put it, but by the 5th generation or so (roughly about 7 years) there could be just too many, and if even a fourth of those could cast some form of magic (sorcerer/druid) you would have a major problem.

 

[Dinkeldog]

I'm inclined to say that offspring won't be intelligent, otherwise within a short period of time, a group of intent druids could ensure that all animals were awakened, given survival of the fittest and generally shorter generations for animal species. Pretty much, the existence of "dumb" animals means that awakening is a personal event for a specific animal only. I might have a slightly different opinion for awakened pairs, but I'm not sure. That or a slow regression to normal, as you have presented in Charlotte's Web.

 

[Sejs]

Not sure if I agree with the previous post. I don't think it is as easy as saying "they'd get shot" and also who said they can't use tools? If they were awakened they could then take character classes, some would at least take levels in sorcerer or some such magic using class. That could very easily sub for tools and would give them the ability to make money which could buy tool users. I think you are being a little short sighted in dismissing the horses ruling the plains. Control does not nec rely on tool usage but more on knowing how to manipulate your world, which with intelligence and magic they could do. The quote leads one to believe that the horsemen waited too long to realize what was happening. If they had killed the first horse or even all of the second or third generation they may have been able to "shoot them" as you put it, but by the 5th generation or so (roughly about 7 years) there could be just too many, and if even a fourth of those could cast some form of magic (sorcerer/druid) you would have a major problem.

A horses lack of digits says they can't use tools. As for characer class levels - they'd have class levels about as frequently as the majority of any population would have class levels. Which isn't often. I agree that given their lack of manipulators, those that -did- have class levels would tend heavily toward spellcasting classes. But again it just doesn't hang together. Being able to cast Mage Hand a couple times per day just doesn't come anywhere close to competing with an entire population that can manipulate heavier objects with greater control at will.

 

[Doctor Bomb]

So is Skippy the Talking Dog a good ol' canis familiaris or some new species, like canis sapiens?

2. If you allow that an awakened animal can breed with a factory-issue animal, what are their children? If you follow the X-Men school of genetic theory, some might be intelligent and some not.

Well, here's my 2cp on the matter.
a) Skippy the Talking dog retains his species because he becomes "magical beast [augmented animal]" if I remember right (still haven't bought the 3.5 PHB). Since he's a magical beast, and an intelligent one at that, I believe he would probably find more canine-type intelligent creatures to "hang out with" after retiring from the adventuring career that got him awakened in the first place. So you might find him hunting down cooshies/moondogs, blink dogs, or even winter wolves or yeth hounds to satisfy his need for companionship.

b) With a normal animal, traits are carried in the genes on the chromosomes. If the "magical beast" trait were to be imprinted on the chromosomes, then as Sejs says, roughly 75% of the offspring of an awakened creature and a normal creature would get the 3d6 Intelligence and the magical beast subtype, the others would be normal animals.
Provided magical beasts are truly magical, then just like humanoids, many of them would be able to breed with each other to produce offspring of either type.

c) As for whether awaken should be a druid spell, that depends on the flavor of your game. Game mechanics-wise, it's a druid spell vice a sor/wiz spell for the same reason heal is not a sor/wiz spell - just doesn't belong in their repertoire. Most of what druids have access to is about altering nature (with the exception of metal, which they seem to be able to heat or chill and little else) rather than preserving it "as is".

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

A horses lack of digits says they can't use tools. As for characer class levels - they'd have class levels about as frequently as the majority of any population would have class levels. Which isn't often. I agree that given their lack of manipulators, those that -did- have class levels would tend heavily toward spellcasting classes. But again it just doesn't hang together. Being able to cast Mage Hand a couple times per day just doesn't come anywhere close to competing with an entire population that can manipulate heavier objects with greater control at will.

Few points. Actually, more would most probably take class levels since they would be innately special and most of those *npc* classes really don't fit them. Remember, everyone takes class levels, just depends on whether it is npc or pc. Here I would argue they would be more likely to take pc classes. Also Mage hand isn't the only option, there's fireball, invisibility and any number of other spells. Another issue is what are you calling an entire population? The quote was about horse nomads, which historically and in most settings are not terribly populace but instead work in small bands. Their one major boon is *their horses* and not special tools which they usually do not use either sicne they are nomads. You do not have walled cities to seige or anything like that. You have a bunch of warriors riding horses that a good percentage of will rebel due to the efforts of that level 5 rogue horse which was sent in as a spy to convert the nomad's one strength to their surprise weekness. You then have the clerics/druids casting magic fang on hooves and wizards supporting with fireball artillery. You basically have systematically turned a mounted calvery advantage against a native people. You now have footmen (the nomads) against highly mobile and, thanks to a few class levels, tough calvary. What heavy objects are you talking bout? Weapons? No an issue when you have horses with magic fang or spiritual weapon beside them. Depending on where this takes place the sorcerers could have predominantly lemurs/mercats/ferrets as familiars which give them rudimentary digit users. You also find a lot more horses tend to summon monkeys with their summoning spells. I'm picturing a huge charge of a thousand wild horses, a few here and there littering the field with fireballs and a few others using flame strike ahead of them, charging against a thousand mounted nomads... which turns into 400 mounted nomads and 600 unmounted nomads when the horse thief gives the signal (out of those 600 unmounted men half of them dead due to their own hose rolling with them or stomping their dazed brains out).

I think I have now spent way too much tiem on this at work and the only thing to dois run it as a campaign, lol.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This discussion reminds me of the Dean Koontz novel Watchers, with Einstein, the genetically-enhanced golden retriever. If I remember correctly, Einstein had a litter of puppies with his mate, a "normal" golden retriever (when asked, he replied to his human "owner," "Hey, intelligence isn't everything, you know!"), and they showed every sign of being as intelligent as their father.

On the other hand, from memory, Ralph von Wau-Wau had never noted any signs of above-average intelligence in any of the puppies he sired.

-Hyp.

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

On the other hand, from memory, Ralph von Wau-Wau had never noted any signs of above-average intelligence in any of the puppies he sired.

-Hyp.

lol, how bout musical talent?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Few points. Actually, more would most probably take class levels since they would be innately special and most of those *npc* classes really don't fit them. Remember, everyone takes class levels, just depends on whether it is npc or pc. Here I would argue they would be more likely to take pc classes.

Yeah, but they make lousy spellcasters; with a bunch of racial hit dice, their ECL is awful.

You basically have systematically turned a mounted calvery advantage against a native people. You now have footmen (the nomads) against highly mobile and, thanks to a few class levels, tough calvary.

Ca-val-ry. Cavalry.

I just about threw something at the television while watching the Two Towers DVD, with Brad Dourif on the commentary track going on and on about how the Rohirrim were such wonderful 'calvary'.

Aargh!

Calvary was the hill where Christ was crucified. A bunch of soldiers on horses is cavalry.

-Hyp.

 

[LostSoul]

This does present a very interesting situation, though, since the awakened animal becomes alone in the world, as its former race can no longer comprehend the nature of its world, while those who can aren't the same species, and thus cannot share the same outlook.

That's a great idea. Consider it stolen.

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

Yeah, but they make lousy spellcasters; with a bunch of racial hit dice, their ECL is awful.



Ca-val-ry. Cavalry.

I just about threw something at the television while watching the Two Towers DVD, with Brad Dourif on the commentary track going on and on about how the Rohirrim were such wonderful 'calvary'.

Aargh!

Calvary was the hill where Christ was crucified. A bunch of soldiers on horses is cavalry.

-Hyp.

yeahyeah i know, but i'm at work and am back and forth and it got through, please show me firsthand Also I am from oklahoma and when spelling I sometimes spell the way they say things where I am from. It's like wheelborrow, I know it is a wheelbarrel, but I still say wheelborrrow. It is something that I have to be really thinking about when I write since I spell very badly anyway (i was above average in school in every subject except spelling, where I would normally get Ds. Go figure.