The awaken spell: playing God?

[Kaleon Moonshae]

Sorry. No excuses. What you're trying to say here is "I know I'm wrong, but you suck!". It's pretty much the definition of ignorance.

If you're wrong and someone points it out to you, and you know it to be true, accept it, learn from it and become a better person. And then attempt to teach it to others.


My point of view would be that they're natural to races that have developed magic independantly, not necessarily to artificially awakened races.

I realise you love the "armies of awakened horses destroying civilisation" angle, but without some serious GM fiat, it's not going to work. Awakened horses will have the same ratio of pc to npc classes as humans, will have the same issues learning spells that a human reincarnated as a horse would, and are likely to spend most of their time adjusting to this, rather than raising armies and razing nomadic settlements.

Oh, and they're unlikely to have a horse god unless the formation of a god just requires 30 or so followers.

Oh, and about 'trading their young'. Where do they hold the money?

Not sure how you get that I am saying you suck or anything of that matter and I admitted that I was wrong. Please make a point there I think you missed my entire point while trying to preach to me. I admitted I was wrong, said that I know I am a poor speller and gave reason behind it. What more do you want? Do you actually think that someone who was used to making over 100% in his classes didn't actually try to spell? Not sure I follow here. I used to spend four times as long on my spelling than I did on the rest of my homework combined, it still didn't earn me Bs or even Cs, it brought me from F to D. I was in a special class for my entire elementary school career to try and learn different methods of spelling. They all failed because things just would not stick. I could do vocabulary (and ended up making a perfect on that section of my ACt) and if I am given three or four choices for a word I usually get it right, but not always. It is something about putting the words together without anything to go on that messes me up. We tried phonics (which actually made it worse), we tried association (which worked best but soon became unwieldy when we started to have to do it with more than 30 words or so), and we tried some wierd program where my counselor put me under some kind of light hypnosis (you know the tapes that relax you and stuff?) and tried to get me past whatever block. None of those things improved my spelling enough to not make it a problem. I don't need excuses, I have reasons, and to me getting my point across is more important than spelling, if I worried about spelling all the time then I would never even attempt to post on the boards. In fact, it kept me from it for almost two years seeing how people were flamed for spelling badly. I am to the point now where I don't care, if my spelling keeps you from taking me serious, no sweat, it doesn't seem to effect most people that way.

Also, I am not *in love with the horse* idea and never said it had no kinks. Go back and reread the original message. I was only saying you should not just flippantly write off an idea as "stupid" or what have you. With some thought it can actually be a story seed. About a god, well there doesn't need to be a horse god since most realms have a *nature/animal* god or do you think that god just rejects them when they figure out how to comunicate with humans? I also took the tact and expressed it as such that I don't see that horses are really changed by the process, only brought into what we recognize as intelligence, basically the gap between *kinds* of intelligence are breached. It is not hard to think that those horses always had gods and such, maybe even rudimentary magic which affected the natural world around them. It was only when they were taught how *we* see the world that they had a chance to put that, possibly, aeons of culture and history to work in a way we could see it, ie sorcerers/clerics/druids. If that is the case then they could take the feats to help them along and explain it as translation more than anything else. Also, I thought we were DMs... house ruling things and fiat are our realm of action and we do it every day, I don't see it as a sin.

Also, the definition of ignorance is "not having a chance to learn" not "denying a lesson" or whatever you are trying to say.

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

Awakened horse psions, wilders and psychic warriors would make for a terrifying force. Hell, there's an encounter in a certain module from a certain feline buccaneer that we all know and love that involves psionic horses... and it's awesome!

Psionics have the advantage of not requiring components (except occasionally an xp component). Psychic warrior horses would be absolutely terrifying enemies with their various psionic attack, damage and defense enhancers. Wilders and psions could combine the best parts of a sorcerer with the horse's natural combat and movement abilities; it would be pretty easy for an awakened horse psion to stay out of melee while he blew up the hapless horseless horsemen during the Great Plains Uprising.

I don't know much about the psions which is why I took the cleric/druid/sorcerer angle. After reading some on them and if we take the awakening as a true epiphany of spontaneous intelligence which some people see it as then I would say psion is the best choice. There has to be a huge boost the ID and Ego in something like awakening.

 

[I'm A Banana]

1. Can awakened animals breed with regular animals (of their species, of course) or only with other awakened animals? After all, it's not an "animal" anymore. The spell slaps a template (magical beast) on the animal. One could argue that what the spell is actually doing is a rather radical neurological mutation. So is Skippy the Talking Dog a good ol' canis familiaris or some new species, like canis sapiens?

Sure, I like that idea. And I'd say they could still (and would still) breed with the others. After all, no sex is just unnatural....

2. If you allow that an awakened animal can breed with a factory-issue animal, what are their children? If you follow the X-Men school of genetic theory, some might be intelligent and some not. Or maybe they mix the traits of both parents, and they're just kinda slow.

Spells don't affect genetic material; their kids are normal animals, the spell affects ONE target, not one target + 3d6 generations.

3. If they can only breed with other awakened members of their species, is a druid fundamentally obligated to awaken one of each sex? After all, it wouldn't be very druidic to create some genetic freak (against its will, even) that can't propagate its line.

What, like making a fire elemental is constructive? Druids don't have to like nature, they just have to get power from it. Nature isn't nessecarily opposed to genetic freakdom, after all. It's what we all were.

4. Does it strike anyone as odd that Awaken is a druid spell at all? It seems to me that tinkering with an animal's "operating system" is one of the grossest violations of the natural order I can think of, and I'm not a druid who's paid to think about these things. I mean, a lizard or a dog or a bear is as smart as it NEEDS to be. It's one thing to create glowing mice, but to fundamentally alter a mouse's brain would be to alter it's entire reason for being. I don't mean to make this sound like an anti-biotech rant, I'm just pointing out that Awaken seems counter to the Druid's philosophy as I understand it. Maybe it would be better suited as a Sor/Wiz spell

Eh. The natural order that does not change dies out quick when the climate changes anyway. One could say that this is changing things to the next logical step, that evolution in D&D is toward higher Int scores, because the environment selects for it (perhaps the dumb beasts get hunted more?). So this spell is just hastening the process for one creature, not violating anything...very logical progression....

 

[reanjr]

Even if you did want to try to apply modern scientific knowledge to magic...

Just because a creature's intelligence is changed, it doesn't mean their genetic makeup is. Think about a person with a genetic predisposition for kidney failure. His kidney fails and he gets a transplant from a perfectly healthy kidney donor (well, except the donor is dead now...). Will the kidney failure guy's kids not have kidney failure now? Of course not!

This would not change genetics at all. The only reason the creature type changes is because D&D won't let an animal have non-animal intelligence. It's a limitation of the system, not a sign that the creature is actually changing in some fundamental way.

Of course, if you WANT it pass on to kids, then go for it. It's your game. But as far as the rules (and modern scientific logic) go, it would not work like that.

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

Even if you did want to try to apply modern scientific knowledge to magic...

Just because a creature's intelligence is changed, it doesn't mean their genetic makeup is. Think about a person with a genetic predisposition for kidney failure. His kidney fails and he gets a transplant from a perfectly healthy kidney donor (well, except the donor is dead now...). Will the kidney failure guy's kids not have kidney failure now? Of course not!

This would not change genetics at all. The only reason the creature type changes is because D&D won't let an animal have non-animal intelligence. It's a limitation of the system, not a sign that the creature is actually changing in some fundamental way.

Of course, if you WANT it pass on to kids, then go for it. It's your game. But as far as the rules (and modern scientific logic) go, it would not work like that.

Well, except that modern scientific logic doubts there is anything such as magic in the first place so it is hard to apply one tot eh other;P Yes, I did say scientific logic *doubts* because they can not completely disprove it so they don't flat out say it doesn't exist.

 

[Henry]

Yes, I did say scientific logic *doubts* because they can not completely disprove it so they don't flat out say it doesn't exist.

Wasn't there a sage advice that noted about two years ago that Awakened animals don't produce awakened offspring? Besides that, I think that people are reading too much into the spell - it does what it says, and nothing more than that.

Imagine an awakened plant, spreading its seed every season. If there were ONE awakened plant, then you would literally have a FOREST of intelligent trees, and humankind (and demi-human kind) is screwed.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I realise you love the "armies of awakened horses destroying civilisation" angle, but without some serious GM fiat, it's not going to work. Awakened horses will have the same ratio of pc to npc classes as humans, will have the same issues learning spells that a human reincarnated as a horse would, and are likely to spend most of their time adjusting to this, rather than raising armies and razing nomadic settlements.

Oh, and they're unlikely to have a horse god unless the formation of a god just requires 30 or so followers.

IMC, animals do have "Beast Lords" -- fairly minor gods which created, and watch over, their kind. Every once in a while, a Beast Lord will awaken the offspring of normal animals. Usually, the idea is that the awakened animal will serve and protect its animal type, although they have free will, and this is not always the case. Humans and other humanoids also worship Beast Lords, so there are considerably more than 30 followers. Though, yes, a truly minor god can exist IMC who has that few.

Awakened animals are the same species as they were before they were awakened. Their minds are affected, not their bodies. I realize that this seems contradictory form a modern, materialistic viewpoint, but it is entirely in keeping with ancient views and, hence, with a magical world where those ancient views are often discovered to be correct.

The Beast Lords also occasionally elevate normal animals to a humanoid type. Thus, there are humanoid bears, oxmen, etc., wandering around in the world. Humanoid animals are new species where they appear. Many of these are born of normal animal unions, and view themselves as essentially unique beings (consider it a mutation). Others are sired of humanoid animals of their type that have gathered into communities. Except in the case of the more powerful Beast Lords, these communities are fragile and suffer from inbreeding. Of course, in the real world, some animals (cheetahs spring to mind) demonstrate that a viable population can exist despite limited breeding stock.

A few of the standard humanoid races (kobolds, lizard folk, bugbears, sahuagin) are actually the descendents of humanoid animals created by the Beast Lords who have managed to survive and thrive.

Oh, and about 'trading their young'. Where do they hold the money?

Ah, Jonathan Swift, why didn't you answer this one for me? Who built all those stables, anyway, for the Houyhnhnms?

The Word Houyhnhnm, in their Tongue, signifies a Horse, and in its Etymology, the Perfection of Nature. I told my Master, that I was at a loss for Expression, but would improve as fast as I could; and hoped in a short time I should be able to tell him Wonders: He was pleased to direct his own Mare, his Colt and Fole, and the Servants of the Family to take all Opportunities of instructing me, and every Day for two or three Hours, he was at the same Pains himself: Several Horses and Mares of Quality in the Neighbourhood came often to our House upon the Report spread of a wonderful Yahoo, that could speak like a Houyhnhnm, and seemed in his Words and Actions to discover some Glimmerings of Reason. These delighted to converse with me; they put many Questions, and received such Answers, as I was able to return. By all these Advantages, I made so great a Progress, that in five Months from my Arrival, I understood whatever was spoke, and could express myself tolerably well.

The Houyhnhnms use the hollow Part between the Pastern and the Hoof of their Fore-feet, as we do our Hands, and this with greater Dexterity, than I could at first imagine. I have seen a White Mare of our Family thead a Needle (which I lent her on purpose) with that Joynt. They milk their Cows, reap their Oats, and do all the Work which requires Hands, in the same manner. They have a kind of hard Flints, which by grinding against other Stones, they form into Instruments, that serve instead of Wedges, Axes, and Hammers. With Tools made of these Flints, they likewise cut their Hay, and reap their Oats, which there groweth naturally in several Fields: The Yahoos draw home the Sheaves in Carriages, and the Servants tread them in several covered Hutts, to get out the Grain, which is kept in Stores. They make a rude kind of earthen and wooden Vessels, and bake the former in the Sun.

Okay, so he did answer those questions.

If you don't like Swift's answers, it would be easy to rule that trading does not necessarily imply the use of money. They may also hire out servants, or have friendly centaurs to help them.

RC

 

[rbingham2000]

Imagine an awakened plant, spreading its seed every season. If there were ONE awakened plant, then you would literally have a FOREST of intelligent trees, and humankind (and demi-human kind) is screwed.

Considering that such a forest would take about hundreds of years to grow as our own forests did, I doubt that humans would be screwed (unless, of course, the trees are the type to uproot themselves and go out looking for trouble -- this IS a fantasy story, after all!).

Also, if it takes that long to grow, maybe the people living in the awakened forest (Elves or some other species or race of your choice) have learned to coexist with the trees for their mutual survival.

 

[Chimera]

Imagine an awakened plant, spreading its seed every season. If there were ONE awakened plant, then you would literally have a FOREST of intelligent trees, and humankind (and demi-human kind) is screwed.

Ah, see, but that's the thing. Awakening doesn't grant mobility. What good to be an awakened Oak tree when you can't move? Cool to think of them defending themselves or attacking invaders, but how to they do this without musculature? "Hmm...I'll just start growing in their direction..."[/i]

(((Scream of Intelligent Wheat)))

 

[Chimera]

1) Smart-ish. Horses are around Int 2/dog-smart. Monkey/Dolphin/Octopus-smart, they ain't.

2) The last line irks me, just from a plausability standpoint. They wouldn't rule the plains. They'd get shot.

1> Ever spent much time around horses? I have.

2> Horses are herd animals. Social animals. They don't have to use tools or cast fireballs or actively engage in direct warfare to 'rule the plains'. I can think of several tactics toward this end.

For one example: How long can you feed your village when the vast herd of horses comes through every now and then and tramples your crops? They don't even need to come to a stop to do this. Just fly on by every once in a while. Sooner or later your peasants are going to get the idea that they can't plant a melon without it being smashed. Then they start to go hungry and get the idea that this isn't the best place to farm.

Oh, and when they do harvest the crops, who carries it into town when there are no horses to pull the wagons? Who pulls the plows? Note that I said "within a generation". Twenty years of this and people tend to give up on living in that area...

Sorry I ended up hijacking this thread with this idea, but it is something to consider with Awakening. Of course, as GM you can rule that Intelligence is not passed on to offspring.

With plants, as I noted above, it's less of an issue. A field of intelligent wheat does no good, since it cannot move. All it can do is scream. A forest of intelligent oaks cannot move, they can only start up a conversation to keep from being terminally bored.

But Intelligent Rabbits.<shudder>. Fields and fields of intelligent bunnies...