The Battle Continues Over "Childish Things"

The recent kerfuffle between Bill Maher and comic fans mourning Stan Lee's passing has illustrated an ugly truth that geeks everywhere continue to face: geekdom is still viewed by some as a sign that society has failed to "grow up."

The recent kerfuffle between Bill Maher and comic fans mourning Stan Lee's passing has illustrated an ugly truth that geeks everywhere continue to face: geekdom is still viewed by some as a sign that society has failed to "grow up."

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Picture courtesy of Pixabay.​
[h=3]It Started with Stan[/h]The death of comics legend Stan Lee prompted an outpouring of grief and comedian Bill Maher took his passing as an opportunity to take a shot at fandom with an essay titled "Adulting":

"...the assumption everyone had back then, both the adults and the kids, was that comics were for kids, and when you grew up you moved on to big-boy books without the pictures. But then twenty years or so ago, something happened – adults decided they didn’t have to give up kid stuff. And so they pretended comic books were actually sophisticated literature."

The response was swift. Maher admitted the lost 40,000 Twitter followers after his post and that he's still followed by paparazzi asking him about "the Stan Lee thing." In response, Maher doubled down in a scathing attack on geekdom everywhere with a video titled, "New Rule: Grow Up":

"...the point of my blog is that I'm not glad Stan Lee is dead I'm sad you're alive...my shot wasn't at Stan Lee it was at, you know, grown men who still dress like kids...I'm sorry but if you are an adult playing with superhero dolls--I'm sorry, I mean collectible action figures!--why not go all the way and drive to work on a big wheel? Grown-ups these days, they cling so desperately to their childhood that when they do attempt to act their age they have a special word for it now, 'adulting'."

If those statements make your blood boil, you're not alone. The comic book industry's condemnation of Maher's comments were swift and wide-reaching. Stan Lee's estate responded directly to Maher:

Mr. Maher: Comic books, like all literature, are storytelling devices. When written well by great creators such as Stan Lee, they make us feel, make us think and teach us lessons that hopefully make us better human beings. One lesson Stan taught so many of us was tolerance and respect, and thanks to that message, we are grateful that we can say you have a right to your opinion that comics are childish and unsophisticated. Many said the same about Dickens, Steinbeck, Melville and even Shakespeare. But to say that Stan merely inspired people to “watch a movie” is in our opinion frankly disgusting. Countless people can attest to how Stan inspired them to read, taught them that the world is not made up of absolutes, that heroes can have flaws and even villains can show humanity within their souls.

The same criticism has been leveled at all things geeky, including role-playing games.
[h=3]Are Role-Playing Games Childish?[/h]Maher's attack on comics is essentially an attack on geekdom itself; the defense from Stan Lee's estate is an argument for the kind of imaginative storytelling that is at the heart of role-playing games.

In a lengthy response to a Quora question if D&D is "too immature and childish," Jake Harris explained:

D&D is a great game that brings people of all kinds together, for those willing to actually try and enjoy it. It's far from childish. Same with other forms of science fiction and fantasy. I strongly believe that these are lowkey pillars of society, which endure when pop culture constantly waxes and wanes with new trends and interpretations of “pop”. Dungeons & Dragons might have 6 Editions (I'm counting 3rd and 3.5 Editions) and Pathfinder, but its playerbase and rules remain largely the same: sit around a table, and travel to far-off lands, doing what no one else in the world is able to. Maybe you think that's childish. Maybe you could even argue that it is. Fine. I submit that maybe our world needs a little childishness. Maybe if we learn to fight less and play more we might actually get somewhere. If we choose to let the children inside of us inspire ourselves and those around us, we might not be stuck with all the problems we have.

Comedian and actor Patton Oswalt doesn't see a difference between pop culture and geek culture:

...I've got news for you—pop culture is nerd culture. The fans of Real Housewives of Hoboken watch, discuss, and absorb their show the same way a geek watched Dark Shadows or obsessed over his eighth-level half-elf ranger character in Dungeons & Dragons. It's the method of consumption, not what's on the plate.

That times have changed is perhaps best exemplified by the Collins online dictionary, which signified a shift away from Maher's perspective:

Once a slur reserved for eggheads and an insult aimed at lovers of computer programming, geek has been deemed the word of the year by the Collins online dictionary. Less brazen than selfie – which topped the Oxford Dictionaries poll last month – geek was chosen as a reminder of how an insult can be transformed into a badge of honour, according to Collins. In September the dictionary changed the main definition of geek from someone preoccupied with computing to "a person who is very knowledgeable and enthusiastic about a specific subject'', adding geekery, geek chic and geekdom to the fold.

Part of geekdom is maintaining the passion for things we enjoyed as children into adulthood, but it does not necessarily mean that we aren't effectively "adulting." Although geekdom seems to have taken over popular culture, comedians like Maher are there to remind us that not everyone is okay with the takeover.

Mike "Talien" Tresca is a freelance game columnist, author, communicator, and a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to http://amazon.com. You can follow him at Patreon.
 

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Michael Tresca

Michael Tresca

Grimkrieg

Villager
Yeah, this is a big miss for Maher, who proudly acts like a horny teenager from a Teen Comedy circa 1980...

I don't see much difference between spending 4 hours at a ballgame, or other sporting contest as an adult, than watching Critical Role every week. I'm certain that at one point, some stick in the mud scoffed at the idea of adults playing sports professionally as well... or acting... or many other things that we now consider legitimate professions and past-times.
 

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Question: If we accept that “D&D” is a serious, adult activity or even a medium capable of producing art, can we still lightly dismiss complaints with “you’re playing a magic elf game” or the like?
 

dragoner

KosmicRPG.com
Maher has made a career out of obnoxious comments, that's his whole shtick, look at his comments on 9/11 or that the government should spy on its people for national security. This I give a solid meh, I've had a thousand times harder life than Maher, I'm here to escape that, if he doesn't need it, lucky him; but I'm not about to live my life by his standards.
 

5ekyu

Hero
My brother and dad dont get my rpg and other game habits but mostly the rpg.

But they have spent more money on and less time playing golf, bowling and poker than i have on rpgs.

I like Maher but some things he is off on, and behind the times.

It was like 25ish years ago after a movie bombed Bette Midler (also a fan) said "nobody makes movies for adults anymore" - way before MCU was a thing.

What Maher should imo have spun on and focused on was that no matter what it is, its money the drives things.

Anybody round here wants to. Strain there are patying themselves on the quality of graphic novel storeytelling or that geekdom is strong and more accepted because of quality etc... Go right ahead.

But its really being accepted because it made money but the truckload. Soon as the license to print money dries up, the acceptance mainstream likely will too.

Truth be told, as for even further how off the mark Maher was, this comes at a time when the ability to get other non-blockbusyer content out is at its higher point - with Netflix, Hulu, Amazon and others looking for content to draw in niche audiences in addition to blockbusters.

We dont need to rail against Maher. Just keep **buying**.... playing is optional.
 

Celebrim

Legend
It looks like a comedian trying to make a joke, I dont think we Geeks should be so serious.

First, I don't agree with the claim that Bill Maher is a comedian, nor do I think he was trying to be funny. Bill Maher is a person who uses the cover of comedy as an excuse for a variety of mean spirited attacks. He's a critic who, if he crosses a line, can always retreat to, "It was just a joke." To me this puts him more in the category of professional troll than comedian.

Fans of comic books are only the most recent in the long list of "persons Bill Maher doesn't like". One should hardly be surprised to find oneself in that group. Nor do I think Bill Maher is trying to be funny, in the sense that "trying to be funny" to me implies at least a sort of gentle mockery, where as Bill Maher is simply scornful and insulting - things I don't find funny. Bill Maher isn't trying to be funny. He's trying to be scathing. He's trying to insult something so that people will feel embarrassed to be the object of his mockery. I think a term like "trying to be funny" shouldn't be conflated with that.

(Side note, I believe that there are (at least) two sorts of humor. One sort of humor is based off mocking a target and trying to persuade your audience to mock it with you, because they perceive the target as being different to them and thus worthy of scorn. The other sort of humor is based off mocking yourself (or even your audience), and tries to persuade your target to have sympathy for you (or themselves), because they see your self-critique as also applying to them. One produces derision and division. The other produces tolerance and good will. Guess which type Bill Maher is known for.)

I'm not 'too serious'. I love geek humor. I thought 'Gamers II: Dorkness Rising' was hilarious. I'll be happy to tell you jokes about myself, including my excessive passion for things that aren't very meaningful. ("Did I ever tell you about the time I camped out to buy tickets to see 'The Phantom Menace'? Wasn't that completely worth it?") But there is a difference between someone who passionately loves the thing he is mocking, and wants to poke fun of it in a self-deprecating but complex way, and simple acts of scorn.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
First, I don't agree with the claim that Bill Maher is a comedian, nor do I think he was trying to be funny. Bill Maher is a person who uses the cover of comedy as an excuse for a variety of mean spirited attacks. He's a critic who, if he crosses a line, can always retreat to, "It was just a joke." To me this puts him more in the category of professional troll than comedian.

Fans of comic books are only the most recent in the long list of "persons Bill Maher doesn't like". One should hardly be surprised to find oneself in that group. Nor do I think Bill Maher is trying to be funny, in the sense that "trying to be funny" to me implies at least a sort of gentle mockery, where as Bill Maher is simply scornful and insulting - things I don't find funny. Bill Maher isn't trying to be funny. He's trying to be scathing. He's trying to insult something so that people will feel embarrassed to be the object of his mockery. I think a term like "trying to be funny" shouldn't be conflated with that.

(Side note, I believe that there are (at least) two sorts of humor. One sort of humor is based off mocking a target and trying to persuade your audience to mock it with you, because they perceive the target as being different to them and thus worthy of scorn. The other sort of humor is based off mocking yourself (or even your audience), and tries to persuade your target to have sympathy for you (or themselves), because they see your self-critique as also applying to them. One produces derision and division. The other produces tolerance and good will. Guess which type Bill Maher is known for.)

I'm not 'too serious'. I love geek humor. I thought 'Gamers II: Dorkness Rising' was hilarious. I'll be happy to tell you jokes about myself, including my excessive passion for things that aren't very meaningful. ("Did I ever tell you about the time I camped out to buy tickets to see 'The Phantom Menace'? Wasn't that completely worth it?") But there is a difference between someone who passionately loves the thing he is mocking, and wants to poke fun of it in a self-deprecating but complex way, and simple acts of scorn.

That is the most serious 'Im not too serious' post I have seen.

It was just a joke, I get it you did not like it. Thats why you dont have to be so serious.
 

Celebrim

Legend
That is the most serious 'Im not too serious' post I have seen.

It was just a joke, I get it you did not like it. Thats why you dont have to be so serious.

Look, I may be semi-autistic, but my understanding of humor is sufficient to be able to tell that the following statement is not in the format of a joke:

"...the assumption everyone had back then, both the adults and the kids, was that comics were for kids, and when you grew up you moved on to big-boy books without the pictures. But then twenty years or so ago, something happened – adults decided they didn’t have to give up kid stuff. And so they pretended comic books were actually sophisticated literature.

And if you in fact think that that is a joke, then I'm not the only one without a sense of humor.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
Look, I may be semi-autistic, but my understanding of humor is sufficient to be able to tell that the following statement is not in the format of a joke:



And if you in fact think that that is a joke, then I'm not the only one without a sense of humor.

And the Battle Continues Over "Childish Things"
 

I

Immortal Sun

Guest
Gonna cut right to the chase here: Bill Maher is several words that I cannot say here without being banned, or making a post entirely filled with smiley-faces. He is, in the nicest terms, a paid troll with a TV show (which is what many TV personalities are these days).

As a child, you are limited in what you can or cannot do by adults. Your parents. Your teachers. Your pastor. Ect....

When you become an adult you either make the most important discovery in your life, or your don't: that as an adult you now have full control over your life (within the law). Wanna play with dolls? Dress in silly costumes? Quit your job? These decisions are now fully within your purview.

The best response to Maher, and all trolls, is to ignore them. All they are is people who are trying to control you. Don't let them.
 

Wall of text... HOOOOOO!

...the point of my blog is that I'm not glad Stan Lee is dead I'm sad you're alive...my shot wasn't at Stan Lee it was at, you know, grown men who still dress like kids...I'm sorry but if you are an adult playing with superhero dolls--I'm sorry, I mean collectible action figures!--why not go all the way and drive to work on a big wheel? Grown-ups these days, they cling so desperately to their childhood that when they do attempt to act their age they have a special word for it now, 'adulting'."

There's a lot to go into with Bill Maher's comments. You can attack the ignorance at so many different levels.

First, there's the foolish attacks on comic books and dismissing them as literature. Which is wholly ignorant when you consider that "comic books" are a medium and not a genre, and his statement is akin to criticising "novels" or "magazine articles".
Comics have produced fantastic works of art. Even adhering to the "super hero" genre most people associate with comic books, there are the assorted works of Alan Moore, such as Swamp Thing, Batman: The Killing Joke, and Watchmen. But from that same author there is also From Hell and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, which are pretty far from superheroes. And this is without getting into work like the Pulitzer Prize winning Maus. Or the award winning and critically acclaimed Persepolis, Ghost World, A Contract With God, Smile, or A Tale of One Bad Rat. Then there's the adult semi-ongoing series, like Y: The Last Man, Fables, Saga, or Preacher. And sooooo many more.
The idea that comics are just for kids is a stigma that fans of the medium have been trying to shake for decades, and something many modern fans are hypersensitive about. So wading into this is pretty foolish of Maher.

The comment on dressing like kids is dependant on arbitrary distinctions. There's nothing inherently special or mature about a suit and tie. What is or is not a childish hobby is variable and entirely a social construct. The difference between cosplay and historical reenactment is flimsy, but if you called Civil War reenactors childish they'd puff up their hilarious hipster facial hair then challenge you to a duel with their toy guns.

Then there's the comment about action figures, which he then mockingly segues from calling "dolls". Which is a transition that is SEXIST AS EFF. Because "dolls" are not any less juvenile than "action figures" and that he thinks the former is more insulting says more about his gender perceptions than it says about his nerd perceptions. Collecting toys marketing for children is pretty childish at face value. But, again, that the toys are for children is an arbitrary social fiction. Model train sets are considered "adult" as are things like ships in a bottle. And how many women collect porcelain dolls without stigma?

That said, I think people are clinging to their childhoods a little more.
This really comes out of the fallout of Generation X. All the Millennials and Zillennials (the generation between X and Millennials) watched people come of age and just be sad and depressed, or are the children of people who gave up childish pursuits, regretted it, and aren't making their children do the same. We're the generation that saw people endlessly chase money in the '80s, working their whole lives in the acquisition of wealth, and not getting any happier. So we're quite willing to actually DO something that makes us happy. More willing to keep a hobby that might be childish but that brings us joy.

Now… are GAMES and activities like "D&D" childish as well?
I doubt anyone would come down on "all games" as childish. Games like Axis & Allies and Risk have always been for grown ups. And there are the myriad party games for all ages and adults. And that's without considering games like chess, backgammon, or checkers.
The complexity of D&D makes it firmly "not for small children". As do its origins: D&D was the result of homebrewing and hacking grown-up wargames. And its creators and initial players were all grown men. Even in its early years, the youngest ages it appealed to was Junior High school students, who would have chafed at being called "children".

That said, just because something is not for children, doesn't automatically make it mature or adult. A regular complaint that I have is that you don't make something more "adult" simply by making it inappropriate for children. Deadpool is super not-for-kids and, as a rated-R movie, it is not for anyone younger than 18. But the target audience for 90% of its humour is 12-17 year olds. This is a big complaint of mine for much of Vampire the Masquerade and similar "mature" RPGs, which make the mistake of assuming the best way of being adult is to drop a few eff-bombs and casually reference sex, pornography, drug use, and the like.

D&D can also matter to people. It's something you can take very seriously and become very important to you. If RPGs are a major hobby or source of relaxation, they can be very important to your mental health. As a group activity, they may also be a major source of social contact. And the characters and stories created during play can be very important. The game is imaginary but the feelings it generates are real. I recently lost a character at the table, and the sadness I felt was wholly real. That person was gone. Forever. That they entirely lived in my head and at the game table was irrelevant.
 

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