The Battle Continues Over "Childish Things"

The recent kerfuffle between Bill Maher and comic fans mourning Stan Lee's passing has illustrated an ugly truth that geeks everywhere continue to face: geekdom is still viewed by some as a sign that society has failed to "grow up."

The recent kerfuffle between Bill Maher and comic fans mourning Stan Lee's passing has illustrated an ugly truth that geeks everywhere continue to face: geekdom is still viewed by some as a sign that society has failed to "grow up."

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Picture courtesy of Pixabay.​
[h=3]It Started with Stan[/h]The death of comics legend Stan Lee prompted an outpouring of grief and comedian Bill Maher took his passing as an opportunity to take a shot at fandom with an essay titled "Adulting":

"...the assumption everyone had back then, both the adults and the kids, was that comics were for kids, and when you grew up you moved on to big-boy books without the pictures. But then twenty years or so ago, something happened – adults decided they didn’t have to give up kid stuff. And so they pretended comic books were actually sophisticated literature."

The response was swift. Maher admitted the lost 40,000 Twitter followers after his post and that he's still followed by paparazzi asking him about "the Stan Lee thing." In response, Maher doubled down in a scathing attack on geekdom everywhere with a video titled, "New Rule: Grow Up":

"...the point of my blog is that I'm not glad Stan Lee is dead I'm sad you're alive...my shot wasn't at Stan Lee it was at, you know, grown men who still dress like kids...I'm sorry but if you are an adult playing with superhero dolls--I'm sorry, I mean collectible action figures!--why not go all the way and drive to work on a big wheel? Grown-ups these days, they cling so desperately to their childhood that when they do attempt to act their age they have a special word for it now, 'adulting'."

If those statements make your blood boil, you're not alone. The comic book industry's condemnation of Maher's comments were swift and wide-reaching. Stan Lee's estate responded directly to Maher:

Mr. Maher: Comic books, like all literature, are storytelling devices. When written well by great creators such as Stan Lee, they make us feel, make us think and teach us lessons that hopefully make us better human beings. One lesson Stan taught so many of us was tolerance and respect, and thanks to that message, we are grateful that we can say you have a right to your opinion that comics are childish and unsophisticated. Many said the same about Dickens, Steinbeck, Melville and even Shakespeare. But to say that Stan merely inspired people to “watch a movie” is in our opinion frankly disgusting. Countless people can attest to how Stan inspired them to read, taught them that the world is not made up of absolutes, that heroes can have flaws and even villains can show humanity within their souls.

The same criticism has been leveled at all things geeky, including role-playing games.
[h=3]Are Role-Playing Games Childish?[/h]Maher's attack on comics is essentially an attack on geekdom itself; the defense from Stan Lee's estate is an argument for the kind of imaginative storytelling that is at the heart of role-playing games.

In a lengthy response to a Quora question if D&D is "too immature and childish," Jake Harris explained:

D&D is a great game that brings people of all kinds together, for those willing to actually try and enjoy it. It's far from childish. Same with other forms of science fiction and fantasy. I strongly believe that these are lowkey pillars of society, which endure when pop culture constantly waxes and wanes with new trends and interpretations of “pop”. Dungeons & Dragons might have 6 Editions (I'm counting 3rd and 3.5 Editions) and Pathfinder, but its playerbase and rules remain largely the same: sit around a table, and travel to far-off lands, doing what no one else in the world is able to. Maybe you think that's childish. Maybe you could even argue that it is. Fine. I submit that maybe our world needs a little childishness. Maybe if we learn to fight less and play more we might actually get somewhere. If we choose to let the children inside of us inspire ourselves and those around us, we might not be stuck with all the problems we have.

Comedian and actor Patton Oswalt doesn't see a difference between pop culture and geek culture:

...I've got news for you—pop culture is nerd culture. The fans of Real Housewives of Hoboken watch, discuss, and absorb their show the same way a geek watched Dark Shadows or obsessed over his eighth-level half-elf ranger character in Dungeons & Dragons. It's the method of consumption, not what's on the plate.

That times have changed is perhaps best exemplified by the Collins online dictionary, which signified a shift away from Maher's perspective:

Once a slur reserved for eggheads and an insult aimed at lovers of computer programming, geek has been deemed the word of the year by the Collins online dictionary. Less brazen than selfie – which topped the Oxford Dictionaries poll last month – geek was chosen as a reminder of how an insult can be transformed into a badge of honour, according to Collins. In September the dictionary changed the main definition of geek from someone preoccupied with computing to "a person who is very knowledgeable and enthusiastic about a specific subject'', adding geekery, geek chic and geekdom to the fold.

Part of geekdom is maintaining the passion for things we enjoyed as children into adulthood, but it does not necessarily mean that we aren't effectively "adulting." Although geekdom seems to have taken over popular culture, comedians like Maher are there to remind us that not everyone is okay with the takeover.

Mike "Talien" Tresca is a freelance game columnist, author, communicator, and a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to http://amazon.com. You can follow him at Patreon.
 

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Shasarak

Banned
Banned
I just watched the "New Rule: Grow Up" clip in the OP and I have to admit, that was funny.

And Maher was right about something, you can not compare Comics with "Dickens, Steinbeck, Melville and even Shakespeare"
 



Celebrim

Legend
And Maher was right about something, you can not compare Comics with "Dickens, Steinbeck, Melville and even Shakespeare"

I'll be happy to compare Mark Millar or Neil Gaimen with Dickens, Steinbeck, Melville, or Shakespeare.

1) I've read all the aforementioned authors.
2) All deal with adult themes.
3) Just like comic books, the novels of Dickens and the plays of Shakespeare were in their day considered low brow plebian fare hardly worthy of being called art. Dickens helped the novel earn respectability as an artform it didn't have before, and Shakespeare to this day upset certain literary snobs who are convinced that all the work of merit good old Bill composed was actually written by the more respectable Christopher Marlowe. You know, someone who didn't try to appeal to the 'groundlings'. What's really going on here is less a division between art and non-art, as it is between high social caste and low social caste. Maher is staking out a claim to be high brow, which, given the low character Maher continually exhibits, is a bit ridiculous.

My reading list doesn't just include comics, but 'books with pictures'. For example, I'm currently reading a collection of Swedish fairy tales illustrated by the incomparable John Bauer. I make no apologies for that. Nor will I apologize for my beloved annotated and illustrated edition of 'The Prince and the Pauper'. There are plenty of ways I could use to grow up and be better at 'adulting', and I dare say some criticism could be levied that way against the general public (Maher more so than most), but the fact that the public likes comic books is not one of them.
 
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Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
And Maher was right about something, you can not compare Comics with "...Shakespeare"

To be fair, I don't think I've read a single comic that has anywhere near as many dick jokes as a typical Shakespeare play.

That said, yeah Bill Maher is a troll, that's basically all he exists to be in our culture currently. And like all trolls, his value at best is as only as worthwhile as the insights buried within vitriol. Which, in Maher's case, is usually negligible. In most instances, here included, this level of trolling is reserved mainly for attention seeking and a cry for relevance (see also: Morgan, Piers; Shatner, William; Olbermann, Keith; etc.)

Really I thought we'd, as a people, already figured out not to pay them any mind by now. There is an extremely limited amount of worthwhile introspection to be gleaned from the equivalent to any real-life "Old Man Yells at Cloud" meme, and that one isn't any exception.
 

Hussar

Legend
I just watched the "New Rule: Grow Up" clip in the OP and I have to admit, that was funny.

And Maher was right about something, you can not compare Comics with "Dickens, Steinbeck, Melville and even Shakespeare"

Thing is though, Harlequin Romance and afternoon soap operas are considered "adult" fiction. I'm pretty willing to stack up comic books to those. 99.9% of literature doesn't compare to those four, regardless of who it's written for.

In any case though, we're LONG past the days when you needed to be ashamed of being a geek. When the video game industry DWARFS Hollywood, just who do you think is buying all those games? When E Sports are rapidly becoming a serious contender for eyeballs with other professional sports, just who do you think is watching? The notion that we have to "grow up" is ludicrous on its face.

I remember talking with my father and him wondering how I could spend hours every Saturday night playing D&D. I replied that he spent hours every Friday night playing Euchre. What was the difference?
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
To be fair, I don't think I've read a single comic that has anywhere near as many dick jokes as a typical Shakespeare play.

Of course, because one is written for children and the other is a Shakespeare play ;)

That said, yeah Bill Maher is a troll, that's basically all he exists to be in our culture currently. And like all trolls, his value at best is as only as worthwhile as the insights buried within vitriol. Which, in Maher's case, is usually negligible. In most instances, here included, this level of trolling is reserved mainly for attention seeking and a cry for relevance (see also: Morgan, Piers; Shatner, William; Olbermann, Keith; etc.)

Really I thought we'd, as a people, already figured out not to pay them any mind by now. There is an extremely limited amount of worthwhile introspection to be gleaned from the equivalent to any real-life "Old Man Yells at Cloud" meme, and that one isn't any exception.

It seems like "Troll" gets thrown around to mean someone who says something that I dont agree with.
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
Of course, because one is written for children and the other is a Shakespeare play ;)

You must not have met many children (or, conversely, not read enough Alan Moore). :devil:

It seems like "Troll" gets thrown around to mean someone who says something that I dont agree with.

Not at all. For instance, I would identify as an atheist. There are a lot of atheists, Maher included, whom the consensus would unhesitatingly label as "trolls". Morgan and Olbermann, meanwhile, are trolls who occupy opposite ends of the (or at least a) political spectrum.

I understand that there's a tendency to blind oneself to the flaws of one's side or the virtues of one's opponent, and there's considerable room for subjectivity, particularly within the middle ground. That said, I struggle to think of a person who better exemplifies the vernacular "troll" objectively better than Maher. Maybe Morgan? But anyway, trolling is Maher's shtick. . Whether one agrees with him or not is irrelevant; in fact I would question the subjectivity of anybody who'd actually try to argue the point that he's not a professional troll at this point. I mean, say what you will about Religulous, for instance, but if somebody earnestly asked "What do you mean by trolling?", "Have you seen Religulous?" would not be a terrible way to answer it.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
You must not have met many children (or, conversely, not read enough Alan Moore). :devil:

I have not read any of Alan Moores work, which is probably enough, but how smart is Doctor Manhattan really if he can not figure out pants. Even the Hulk can figure out pants.

I understand that there's a tendency to blind oneself to the flaws of one's side or the virtues of one's opponent, and there's considerable room for subjectivity, particularly within the middle ground. That said, I struggle to think of a person who better exemplifies the vernacular "troll" objectively better than Maher. Maybe Morgan? But anyway, trolling is Maher's shtick. . Whether one agrees with him or not is irrelevant; in fact I would question the subjectivity of anybody who'd actually try to argue the point that he's not a professional troll at this point. I mean, say what you will about Religulous, for instance, but if somebody earnestly asked "What do you mean by trolling?", "Have you seen Religulous?" would not be a terrible way to answer it.

So your position is all comedians like, Sacha Baron Cohen for example, are just Trolls? Because the American War of Terror was dynamite Troll material.
 

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