The Battle Continues Over "Childish Things"

The recent kerfuffle between Bill Maher and comic fans mourning Stan Lee's passing has illustrated an ugly truth that geeks everywhere continue to face: geekdom is still viewed by some as a sign that society has failed to "grow up."

The recent kerfuffle between Bill Maher and comic fans mourning Stan Lee's passing has illustrated an ugly truth that geeks everywhere continue to face: geekdom is still viewed by some as a sign that society has failed to "grow up."

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Picture courtesy of Pixabay.​
[h=3]It Started with Stan[/h]The death of comics legend Stan Lee prompted an outpouring of grief and comedian Bill Maher took his passing as an opportunity to take a shot at fandom with an essay titled "Adulting":

"...the assumption everyone had back then, both the adults and the kids, was that comics were for kids, and when you grew up you moved on to big-boy books without the pictures. But then twenty years or so ago, something happened – adults decided they didn’t have to give up kid stuff. And so they pretended comic books were actually sophisticated literature."

The response was swift. Maher admitted the lost 40,000 Twitter followers after his post and that he's still followed by paparazzi asking him about "the Stan Lee thing." In response, Maher doubled down in a scathing attack on geekdom everywhere with a video titled, "New Rule: Grow Up":

"...the point of my blog is that I'm not glad Stan Lee is dead I'm sad you're alive...my shot wasn't at Stan Lee it was at, you know, grown men who still dress like kids...I'm sorry but if you are an adult playing with superhero dolls--I'm sorry, I mean collectible action figures!--why not go all the way and drive to work on a big wheel? Grown-ups these days, they cling so desperately to their childhood that when they do attempt to act their age they have a special word for it now, 'adulting'."

If those statements make your blood boil, you're not alone. The comic book industry's condemnation of Maher's comments were swift and wide-reaching. Stan Lee's estate responded directly to Maher:

Mr. Maher: Comic books, like all literature, are storytelling devices. When written well by great creators such as Stan Lee, they make us feel, make us think and teach us lessons that hopefully make us better human beings. One lesson Stan taught so many of us was tolerance and respect, and thanks to that message, we are grateful that we can say you have a right to your opinion that comics are childish and unsophisticated. Many said the same about Dickens, Steinbeck, Melville and even Shakespeare. But to say that Stan merely inspired people to “watch a movie” is in our opinion frankly disgusting. Countless people can attest to how Stan inspired them to read, taught them that the world is not made up of absolutes, that heroes can have flaws and even villains can show humanity within their souls.

The same criticism has been leveled at all things geeky, including role-playing games.
[h=3]Are Role-Playing Games Childish?[/h]Maher's attack on comics is essentially an attack on geekdom itself; the defense from Stan Lee's estate is an argument for the kind of imaginative storytelling that is at the heart of role-playing games.

In a lengthy response to a Quora question if D&D is "too immature and childish," Jake Harris explained:

D&D is a great game that brings people of all kinds together, for those willing to actually try and enjoy it. It's far from childish. Same with other forms of science fiction and fantasy. I strongly believe that these are lowkey pillars of society, which endure when pop culture constantly waxes and wanes with new trends and interpretations of “pop”. Dungeons & Dragons might have 6 Editions (I'm counting 3rd and 3.5 Editions) and Pathfinder, but its playerbase and rules remain largely the same: sit around a table, and travel to far-off lands, doing what no one else in the world is able to. Maybe you think that's childish. Maybe you could even argue that it is. Fine. I submit that maybe our world needs a little childishness. Maybe if we learn to fight less and play more we might actually get somewhere. If we choose to let the children inside of us inspire ourselves and those around us, we might not be stuck with all the problems we have.

Comedian and actor Patton Oswalt doesn't see a difference between pop culture and geek culture:

...I've got news for you—pop culture is nerd culture. The fans of Real Housewives of Hoboken watch, discuss, and absorb their show the same way a geek watched Dark Shadows or obsessed over his eighth-level half-elf ranger character in Dungeons & Dragons. It's the method of consumption, not what's on the plate.

That times have changed is perhaps best exemplified by the Collins online dictionary, which signified a shift away from Maher's perspective:

Once a slur reserved for eggheads and an insult aimed at lovers of computer programming, geek has been deemed the word of the year by the Collins online dictionary. Less brazen than selfie – which topped the Oxford Dictionaries poll last month – geek was chosen as a reminder of how an insult can be transformed into a badge of honour, according to Collins. In September the dictionary changed the main definition of geek from someone preoccupied with computing to "a person who is very knowledgeable and enthusiastic about a specific subject'', adding geekery, geek chic and geekdom to the fold.

Part of geekdom is maintaining the passion for things we enjoyed as children into adulthood, but it does not necessarily mean that we aren't effectively "adulting." Although geekdom seems to have taken over popular culture, comedians like Maher are there to remind us that not everyone is okay with the takeover.

Mike "Talien" Tresca is a freelance game columnist, author, communicator, and a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to http://amazon.com. You can follow him at Patreon.
 

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jasper

Rotten DM
Huh. When writers like Margaret Atwood can do "genre" fiction and do it seriously, I think the days when "genre fiction" was the lesser form are long, long gone.

When we have multiple genre TV shows on, pretty much every night, on pretty much every major network and in prime time no less, I think the days when SF and Fantasy are for kids are long, long gone.

But, then again, critics still think that video games are what kids play. Never minding things like my grandmother playing Farmville. Or that 65 year old retiree playing Fantasy Football. :uhoh:

Sorry, but the days when you could try to claim any sort of superiority because you don't read comic books or don't engage in role playing games or other genre hobbies died with the 90's. Sorry folks, the Gen X'ers, who grew up on D&D and Xena Warrior Princess are now the ones in charge of stuff. And we LIKE genre fiction. Get used to it Baby Boomers cause the days of Gunsmoke and doctor dramas are gone away.
Farmville and fantasy football are not real games... You have to have a 2k rig and buy 3 games a week and have a k/d of 2+ or you aren't a real gamer. Now I must go set my VHS for Grey’s Anatomy, Chicago Med, The Good Doctor, The Resident, Doctor who, New Amsterdam, ..
You. Are. Reacting. Like. Bill. Shatner. Just. Made. Fun. Of. Star. Trek. On. Saturday. Night. Live. On. December. 26.1986.
Ok. Enough of that. If Bill Maher is not longer into comics or RPGs, Big Fat Hairy Deal! Some people move on out of the hobby. And would any non gamer/geek really know who Stan Lee was if he was not an incredible huckster? Who was smart enough to make sure his contract stated he MUST APPEAR IN ALL MARVEL MOVIES.
A few comics (some mention here) are literature, the rest are junk, or nice reading, or just for us fans.
 

Hussar

Legend
90% of everything is crap.

Fantasy Football isn't a real game? That would be news to the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people who do it.

See, that's what happens when things become more or less mainstream. Those gamers that insist that you need that kind of computer? They're a bad joke. That's not what gaming is anymore. Now, gaming really is FarmVille which outnumbers and out earns pretty much anything else on the planet.

I, for one, love that fact.
 

GodDelusion

First Post
Mind if I share this pic and your quote?

Adults dressing up in costumes? Check!
Debates/arguments over rules and plays? Check!
Constructing fantasy teams and turning it into a competitive/social activity? Check!

Yeah, we're all geeks in our own way.
NFL_Superfans.jpg
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
Damn. I love Gunsmoke.

Gunsmoke rules. I miss the shows where the protagonist wasn't just a slightly less scumbaggy person than the antagonists...but back to the point of the thread.

And is saying "well the adults of today are the ones who grew up and still love D&D, dolls, Wonder Woman comics, and My Little Pony" really refuting Maher? Or just supporting the notion that the modern adult has the interests that kids did in the olden days?
 


Celebrim

Legend
And would any non gamer/geek really know who Stan Lee was if he was not an incredible huckster? Who was smart enough to make sure his contract stated he MUST APPEAR IN ALL MARVEL MOVIES.

Stan was famous in the geek community long before he was a regular Easter Egg in the Marvel Extended universe. But my absolute favorite comic book reference in the movies doesn't actually reference Stan directly (even though Stan wrote the dialogue for the character), but his partner Jack Kirby, and it comes from the movie 'Crimson Tide'. In the movie, the XO protagonist has to deal with a fight that has broken out between two technicians aboard his boat:

Hunter: Rivetti, what's up?
Rivetti: I'm sorry, Sir. It's just a difference of opinion that got out of hand.
Hunter: What about?
Rivetti: It's really too silly to talk about, Sir. I'd really just forget about...
Hunter: I don't give a damn about what you'd rather forget about. Why were you two fighting?
Rivetti: I said, the Kirby Silver Surfer was the only real Silver Surfer. And that the Moebius Silver Surfer was :):):):). And Bennefield's a big Moebius fan. And it got of hand. I pushed him. He pushed me. I lost my head, Sir. I'm Sorry.
Hunter: Rivetti, you're a supervisor. You can get a commission like that.
Rivetti: I know, Sir. You're 100 percent right. It will never happen again.
Hunter: It better not happen again. If I see this kind of nonsense again, I'm going to write you up. You understand?
Rivetti: [No answer]
Hunter: Do you understand?
Rivetti: Yes, Sir.
Hunter: You have to set an example even in the face of stupidity. Everybody who reads comic books knows that the Kirby Silver Surfer is the only true Silver Surfer. Now am I right or wrong?
Rivetti: You're right, Sir.
Hunter: Now get out of here.
Rivetti: Yes, Sir.

A few comics (some mention here) are literature, the rest are junk, or nice reading, or just for us fans.

So it is with movies, RPG adventures, video games, novels, plays, poems, and all other mediums in the narrative arts.
 

Count_Zero

Adventurer
And is saying "well the adults of today are the ones who grew up and still love D&D, dolls, Wonder Woman comics, and My Little Pony" really refuting Maher? Or just supporting the notion that the modern adult has the interests that kids did in the olden days?

Well, Maher's argument is taking that statement and adding - "...and because of that they are inferior to adults of my generation and thus by extension me - and are they, their life experiences, their fears and nightmares, hopes and dreams, are worthy of mockery and dismissal." It's the same point of view that lead to Aaron Sorkin dismissing arguing for civil rights for people of color and GLBT people as "Identity Politics".
 


I'll play devil's advocate here.

Big picture, it's worth considering is there's something unhealthy in a society where people's outlooks, preferences, and pass-times don't change between adolescence and mature adulthood. When adults are regarded as teenagers with more money in their pockets. When it's pretty much impossible for a movie to be a big hit unless it appeals to adolescents.

Look at the top box office movies over the decades and consider what they say about society.

https://www.filmsite.org/boxoffice2.html

What did it say about the 1960s that movies like Doctor Zhivago, Lawrence of Arabia, Midnight Cowboy, and Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf - movies that few 12 year olds would understand, let alone enjoy - were box office hits?

What does it say about the 2010s that virtually all of the biggest earners are fantasies aimed at 12 year olds? What does it say about the changes in tastes that an unapologetically adult movie like Doctor Zhivago would be considered a fringe art-house film if it were released today, instead of enormously popular entertainment? Or that Kramer vs Kramer wouldn't even get wide distribution today, let alone be the #1 top-grossing movie of the year?

What does it say about a society when its 45 year olds want to consume the same art and culture that they consumed as 15 year olds?
 

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