The Battle Continues Over "Childish Things"

The recent kerfuffle between Bill Maher and comic fans mourning Stan Lee's passing has illustrated an ugly truth that geeks everywhere continue to face: geekdom is still viewed by some as a sign that society has failed to "grow up."

The recent kerfuffle between Bill Maher and comic fans mourning Stan Lee's passing has illustrated an ugly truth that geeks everywhere continue to face: geekdom is still viewed by some as a sign that society has failed to "grow up."

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Picture courtesy of Pixabay.​
[h=3]It Started with Stan[/h]The death of comics legend Stan Lee prompted an outpouring of grief and comedian Bill Maher took his passing as an opportunity to take a shot at fandom with an essay titled "Adulting":

"...the assumption everyone had back then, both the adults and the kids, was that comics were for kids, and when you grew up you moved on to big-boy books without the pictures. But then twenty years or so ago, something happened – adults decided they didn’t have to give up kid stuff. And so they pretended comic books were actually sophisticated literature."

The response was swift. Maher admitted the lost 40,000 Twitter followers after his post and that he's still followed by paparazzi asking him about "the Stan Lee thing." In response, Maher doubled down in a scathing attack on geekdom everywhere with a video titled, "New Rule: Grow Up":

"...the point of my blog is that I'm not glad Stan Lee is dead I'm sad you're alive...my shot wasn't at Stan Lee it was at, you know, grown men who still dress like kids...I'm sorry but if you are an adult playing with superhero dolls--I'm sorry, I mean collectible action figures!--why not go all the way and drive to work on a big wheel? Grown-ups these days, they cling so desperately to their childhood that when they do attempt to act their age they have a special word for it now, 'adulting'."

If those statements make your blood boil, you're not alone. The comic book industry's condemnation of Maher's comments were swift and wide-reaching. Stan Lee's estate responded directly to Maher:

Mr. Maher: Comic books, like all literature, are storytelling devices. When written well by great creators such as Stan Lee, they make us feel, make us think and teach us lessons that hopefully make us better human beings. One lesson Stan taught so many of us was tolerance and respect, and thanks to that message, we are grateful that we can say you have a right to your opinion that comics are childish and unsophisticated. Many said the same about Dickens, Steinbeck, Melville and even Shakespeare. But to say that Stan merely inspired people to “watch a movie” is in our opinion frankly disgusting. Countless people can attest to how Stan inspired them to read, taught them that the world is not made up of absolutes, that heroes can have flaws and even villains can show humanity within their souls.

The same criticism has been leveled at all things geeky, including role-playing games.
[h=3]Are Role-Playing Games Childish?[/h]Maher's attack on comics is essentially an attack on geekdom itself; the defense from Stan Lee's estate is an argument for the kind of imaginative storytelling that is at the heart of role-playing games.

In a lengthy response to a Quora question if D&D is "too immature and childish," Jake Harris explained:

D&D is a great game that brings people of all kinds together, for those willing to actually try and enjoy it. It's far from childish. Same with other forms of science fiction and fantasy. I strongly believe that these are lowkey pillars of society, which endure when pop culture constantly waxes and wanes with new trends and interpretations of “pop”. Dungeons & Dragons might have 6 Editions (I'm counting 3rd and 3.5 Editions) and Pathfinder, but its playerbase and rules remain largely the same: sit around a table, and travel to far-off lands, doing what no one else in the world is able to. Maybe you think that's childish. Maybe you could even argue that it is. Fine. I submit that maybe our world needs a little childishness. Maybe if we learn to fight less and play more we might actually get somewhere. If we choose to let the children inside of us inspire ourselves and those around us, we might not be stuck with all the problems we have.

Comedian and actor Patton Oswalt doesn't see a difference between pop culture and geek culture:

...I've got news for you—pop culture is nerd culture. The fans of Real Housewives of Hoboken watch, discuss, and absorb their show the same way a geek watched Dark Shadows or obsessed over his eighth-level half-elf ranger character in Dungeons & Dragons. It's the method of consumption, not what's on the plate.

That times have changed is perhaps best exemplified by the Collins online dictionary, which signified a shift away from Maher's perspective:

Once a slur reserved for eggheads and an insult aimed at lovers of computer programming, geek has been deemed the word of the year by the Collins online dictionary. Less brazen than selfie – which topped the Oxford Dictionaries poll last month – geek was chosen as a reminder of how an insult can be transformed into a badge of honour, according to Collins. In September the dictionary changed the main definition of geek from someone preoccupied with computing to "a person who is very knowledgeable and enthusiastic about a specific subject'', adding geekery, geek chic and geekdom to the fold.

Part of geekdom is maintaining the passion for things we enjoyed as children into adulthood, but it does not necessarily mean that we aren't effectively "adulting." Although geekdom seems to have taken over popular culture, comedians like Maher are there to remind us that not everyone is okay with the takeover.

Mike "Talien" Tresca is a freelance game columnist, author, communicator, and a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to http://amazon.com. You can follow him at Patreon.
 

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Michael Tresca

Michael Tresca

GloomyGus

Villager
What does it say about a society when its 45 year olds want to consume the same art and culture that they consumed as 15 year olds?

That stagnant wages and growing economic anxieties among the working class lead the public to pursue comfortable escapism from an increasingly terrifying real life, while back in the 60's moviegoers were comfortable enough in their daily lives that they wanted to seek high-minded, challenging content as part of their entertainment.
 

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Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
So to me, it's a question of whether he knows that or not. Is he so unaware? Like him or hate him, he's a smart person. So he must know that every medium has fare for every age category out there.

So then the obvious answer is he knows that, but feigned ignorance in order to rile folks up and get a lot of attention.

Yep, he is that kind of :eggplant emoji:.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
I'll play devil's advocate here. <...> What does it say about a society when its 45 year olds want to consume the same art and culture that they consumed as 15 year olds?

I get that you're playing devil's advocate and I appreciate the role, but Boomers themselves are far from immune. In many respects, they're the worst offenders. Think about the "oldies' station" which plays music from the youth of Boomers. Ditto the bands that were fresh and interesting (or not, as the case may be) in the '60s and '70s that are still touring, charging megabucks, and all they're doing is playing their chestnuts. Rich Boomers have essentially run up the market on "vintage" instruments, some of which are total dogs compared to what's being made today.

It's not just music. Look in media that sells guns, golf, cars, etc. They're all selling fantasy. A fat 56 year old ten years off a knee replacement isn't going to be a scratch golfer or an ace tactical shooter, if he ever was.

Yet comic books and RPGs get slagged for being "childish."
 
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jasper

Rotten DM
...Stan was famous in the geek community ...... True but not mainstream.
What Maher is doing is what every Non-your-hobby person does, make fun off it to tick of the natives. Aka Geeks. Nerds, Comic book guys.
I have seen people in my office get upset because it a big deal that ref missed a call and their team did not go to the Super Bowl. I only watched 5 seconds of the game Sunday. Big deal I don't care about that hobby.
I don't understand the riots in England over soccer matches. AKA Non my hobby so it is not important.
I don't understand why BBC America show dart matches. But the crowds look like it is super important.
I don't understand when people get upset if the actor call it a clip instead of magazine.
I don't understand the Olymics but the advertising people think it is a big deal.
I don't care if a college kid throw a 3 pointer in the Sweet Sixteen in April. Only reason I know it a 3 pt is the line on the floor and the announced score.
Why so serious over your hobby" (jasper licks his lips, smooth his hair back, and fingers a switchblade).
One person's childish hobby, is another's major enjoyment, and another's big deal. So big he argue the point of you disrespecting his hobby.
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
I get that you're playing devil's advocate and I appreciate the role, but Boomers themselves are far from immune. In many respects, they're the worst offenders. Think about the "oldies' station" which plays music from the youth of Boomers. Ditto the bands that were fresh and interesting (or not, as the case may be) in the '60s and '70s that are still touring, charging megabucks, and all they're doing is playing their chestnuts. Rich Boomers have essentially run up the market on "vintage" instruments, some of which are total dogs compared to what's being made today.

It's not just music. Look in media that sells guns, golf, cars, etc. They're all selling fantasy. A fat 56 year old ten years off a knee replacement isn't going to be a scratch golfer or an ace tactical shooter, if he ever was.

Yet comic books and RPGs get slagged for being "childish."

I think people look at hobbies like playing sports for real, collecting/shooting firearms, collecting and working on classic cars as more mature than sitting around a table pretending to be an elf. A crappy golfer will look up to Jordan Speith and fantasize about winning the Masters decked out in his fancy golf gear and that is a fantasy...but in the end he is out playing golf and getting exercise and all that and hopefully improving. I watch a lot of firearms content but I don't think I fantasize much about being the final line of defense against Marxism or such things...well not that much. I do like seeing reviews on new stuff to get an idea if its worth buying.

As for music, it seems most people stay with the stuff they were into when they were young. I keep trying out new metal and rock bands and too often its a pale shade of a record I was rocking 25 years ago. Plus good music is good music.

I know some of my friends view my RPG and wargaming hobbies as childish. They are kind of right I think but I figure I'm grown up enough in other areas.

Maybe the difference is when Judge Smails is out shooting golf in his new golf hat he taking part in a 'real world' activity compared to tuning the world out and drifting into fantasy land? I don't know, just some thoughts.

Though one thing that many have stated that I think is true is that Maher is a *bleep* regardless.
 

That stagnant wages and growing economic anxieties among the working class lead the public to pursue comfortable escapism from an increasingly terrifying real life, while back in the 60's moviegoers were comfortable enough in their daily lives that they wanted to seek high-minded, challenging content as part of their entertainment.

You'd find a lot of the adults who went to those films grew up in what we would regard as horrific conditions in the 20s and 30s. And of course many of them would have fought or had their homes destroyed in WW2. Seems to me that generation had more excuse to pursue escapism in its entertainment than people today who have grown up with unprecedented physical safety and material comfort.
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Look at the top box office movies over the decades and consider what they say about society.

https://www.filmsite.org/boxoffice2.html

What did it say about the 1960s that movies like Doctor Zhivago, Lawrence of Arabia, Midnight Cowboy, and Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf - movies that few 12 year olds would understand, let alone enjoy - were box office hits?

What does it say about the 2010s that virtually all of the biggest earners are fantasies aimed at 12 year olds? What does it say about the changes in tastes that an unapologetically adult movie like Doctor Zhivago would be considered a fringe art-house film if it were released today, instead of enormously popular entertainment? Or that Kramer vs Kramer wouldn't even get wide distribution today, let alone be the #1 top-grossing movie of the year?

What does it say about a society when its 45 year olds want to consume the same art and culture that they consumed as 15 year olds?
One thing is says is that most of the movie studios in the 1960s probably left a lot of money on the table by not making films for kids.

They essentially ceded an entire demographic to Disney and gave them a virtual monopoly that has allowed Disney to be a major force in shaping intellectual property law.

It also says you might be underestimating the popularity of movies like Dr. Z and KvK...and/or overestimating the quality of modern films that aspire to be like them. Hollywood has produced a LOT of formulaic movies for adults in many genres.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
I think people look at hobbies like playing sports for real, collecting/shooting firearms, collecting and working on classic cars as more mature than sitting around a table pretending to be an elf.

I think that's a common reaction, certainly.


A crappy golfer will look up to Jordan Speith and fantasize about winning the Masters decked out in his fancy golf gear and that is a fantasy...but in the end he is out playing golf and getting exercise and all that and hopefully improving.

Perhaps, though I dispute that someone prepping a D&D game isn't "doing something". I'm a statistician by trade and you'd be surprised how many people my rough age group (fortysomething...) first got interested in the subject because of the enigmatic bell curve that appeared in the 1E DMG. Statistics is a hot field now, but that wasn't always so. A lot of us had a pretty major leg up on the SAT because of Gygax's fairly challenging (arguably, too challenging) writing, too.


I watch a lot of firearms content but I don't think I fantasize much about being the final line of defense against Marxism or such things...well not that much. I do like seeing reviews on new stuff to get an idea if its worth buying.

Right, which is IMO no different than what many RPG players are doing.


As for music, it seems most people stay with the stuff they were into when they were young. I keep trying out new metal and rock bands and too often its a pale shade of a record I was rocking 25 years ago. Plus good music is good music.

Right, many people's taste gets formed in their teen and young adult years.

I know some of my friends view my RPG and wargaming hobbies as childish. They are kind of right I think but I figure I'm grown up enough in other areas.

I get where the skeptics are coming from, too, I just don't think there's some kind of major dividing line between this and any other hobby. There's often a whole lot of judgment and generational hostility, though.

Maybe the difference is when Judge Smails is out shooting golf in his new golf hat he taking part in a 'real world' activity compared to tuning the world out and drifting into fantasy land? I don't know, just some thoughts.

Wait... the country club bar isn't fantasy land? :D

I know people who got married through an RPG, got jobs through those contacts, and learned new skills. I've maintained friendships over decades through gaming. My "Silent Generation" dad doesn't understand how that's happened, nor does he really "get" games, but he's more than once asked how I managed to have some friends I've known since I was in the tail end of college. I don't think he has any from his days in the military and right after. Most of his friends are from religious association, but, quite frankly, that's not fundamentally different than my D&D or music hobbies.

Some of my old gaming buddies and I get together every six months. We rent an Airbnb house and play D&D or other games. Last time I got back my dad asked me about that. He said he knew nobody else who did that. I said, "well, actually a lot of people I know do something like that, it's probably more of a thing for people my age." The game is, above all else, a medium to maintain friendships. We've gone to each other's weddings, sometimes wondered about people's choice in partners, cheered the births of children, lamented and/or celebrated the divorces, been there when someone ended up with a life threatening condition, urged each other to get help when it was pretty clear "something had changed", helped each other make investment or career decisions, and so on.

Gaming gives us a reason to get together regularly. Could it have been something else? Sure. For us it was crazy old Gary Gygax's creations.

Though one thing that many have stated that I think is true is that Maher is a *bleep* regardless.

Maher is an :eggplant emoji:, definitely.
 

Hussar

Legend
I'll play devil's advocate here.

Big picture, it's worth considering is there's something unhealthy in a society where people's outlooks, preferences, and pass-times don't change between adolescence and mature adulthood. When adults are regarded as teenagers with more money in their pockets. When it's pretty much impossible for a movie to be a big hit unless it appeals to adolescents.

Look at the top box office movies over the decades and consider what they say about society.

https://www.filmsite.org/boxoffice2.html

What did it say about the 1960s that movies like Doctor Zhivago, Lawrence of Arabia, Midnight Cowboy, and Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf - movies that few 12 year olds would understand, let alone enjoy - were box office hits?

What does it say about the 2010s that virtually all of the biggest earners are fantasies aimed at 12 year olds? What does it say about the changes in tastes that an unapologetically adult movie like Doctor Zhivago would be considered a fringe art-house film if it were released today, instead of enormously popular entertainment? Or that Kramer vs Kramer wouldn't even get wide distribution today, let alone be the #1 top-grossing movie of the year?

What does it say about a society when its 45 year olds want to consume the same art and culture that they consumed as 15 year olds?

Well, first off, I'd say that it says that you are cherry picking your examples. Going from your site:

Top 3 movies of the 1940's: Bambi, Pinocchio and Fantasia
Top 4 movies of the 1950's: The Ten Commandments, Lady and the Tramp, Peter Pan, Cinderella
Top 4 movies of the 1960's: The Sound of Music, The Graduate, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, The Jungle Book
Top 3 movies of the 1970's: Star Wars, Jaws and Grease.

Something like Doctor Zhivago ranks in at #22 on your list for the 60's. The exact same placing for the decade as Dances with Wolves and far less popular than The Passion of The Christ.

Of the top 13 grossing movies from the 40's to the 70's, all but three are children's or adolescent movies.

The more things change...
 

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