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The Blood War and Other Planar Conflicts: A Circumplex Cosmology

Nifft

Penguin Herder
I think you'd be better off ditching the Great Wheel and coming up with your own Emotion Wheel, or whatever.
I kind of liked the Great Wheel, and even I can't justify having all those filler planes in there. I like about half of them (mostly the lower half).

I'd much rather see a new Emotion Wheel (or whatever) than yet another justification for a bunch of planes that never did much for me.

Also, IMHO Hell == Hate. Methodical, cold, calculated, and utterly poisonous hate.

Cheers, -- N
 

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I kind of liked the Great Wheel, and even I can't justify having all those filler planes in there. I like about half of them (mostly the lower half).

I'd much rather see a new Emotion Wheel (or whatever) than yet another justification for a bunch of planes that never did much for me.

Also, IMHO Hell == Hate. Methodical, cold, calculated, and utterly poisonous hate.
Fair enough, but I think you might be misunderstanding me. I'm not a big fan of the Great Wheel, but its philosophical underpinnings with the D&D 9-point alignment system (with hybrid planes between each point on the 9-point system) is pretty obvious. If you want to have a cosmology with different philosophical underpinnings, you're probably better off coming up with a new cosmology.

My only point was that saying that this new underpinning already works under the Great Wheel is unconvincing. It requires some dubious assignments to make it work, such as Hell being equivalent to rage. Or the assignment of Pandemonium to "Spookiness" while simultaneously admitting that the English language lacks a good word to describe the specific emotion he's looking for.

I find the exercise not unlike August Derleth's attempts to categorize the Old Ones under and elemental scheme, where he had to give some highly dubious assignments, and then make up nearly 100% new Old Ones to fill the gaps. More likely, it just wasn't a good fit to the cosmology to begin with. I see the same thing here.

Why is contempt Gehenna and not Baator? Why is horror Tartarus and not the Abyss?

No good reason. Just because they need to be in order to fit the structure that is being imposed on them.
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
My only point was that saying that this new underpinning already works under the Great Wheel is unconvincing. It requires some dubious assignments to make it work, such as Hell being equivalent to rage. Or the assignment of Pandemonium to "Spookiness" while simultaneously admitting that the English language lacks a good word to describe the specific emotion he's looking for.
I agree with you there, but I also take the step of asserting that the original Great Wheel had some good parts but was itself rather dubious in terms of assigning planes to alignments.

For example, Pandemonium = really windy tunnels, as that's somehow what you get when you mix the Infinite Abyss with pure Limbonic Chaos.

I find the exercise not unlike August Derleth's attempts to categorize the Old Ones under and elemental scheme, where he had to give some highly dubious assignments, and then make up nearly 100% new Old Ones to fill the gaps. More likely, it just wasn't a good fit to the cosmology to begin with. I see the same thing here.

Why is contempt Gehenna and not Baator? Why is horror Tartarus and not the Abyss?

No good reason. Just because they need to be in order to fit the structure that is being imposed on them.
Again, I don't disagree, but I see it not being all that much worse than deciding that floating metal cubes are the embodiment of Law by Lawful Evil.

Basically: I'd rather see a new planar cosmology ("Emotion Wheel" or whatever) than another rehash of something which had some good ideas, but never really worked for me.

Cheers, -- N
 

evileeyore

Mrrrph
As I discuss in the text, Plutchik incorrectly puts fear opposite of anger. Fear and anger share disapproval of the situation, and thus are not true diametrical opposites. Specifically, I have modified Plutchik's wheel by placing Fear into the slot for Grief and replacing Fear with Exhilaration.

What?


Anger isn't disproval, it's dismissal and contempt. As well fear is submission over disproval.

I argue that Grief or Sadness is not the same as the other "affective states" on his wheel: Each of the other "affective states" is a distribution of future expectations while Grief is strictly related to the present or earlier.

I can't grieve for lost opportunites? For potentials that can never happen? And Anger is a "future expectation"? Anger is usually over what has occured or is occuring, rarely is it over "what might occur".



It would be the same as calling Pleasure an emotion; Pleasure is experienced while you are Serene, but it also can be experienced in Love and Exhilaration. Pleasure is a sensation.


Now your just making things up. Pleasure is nowhere on Plutchik's Wheel.



Yeah, I thought about adding a short bit about how Righteousness, Beauty, and Spookiness are really more Nobility, Attraction, and, well, feeling Spooked or Unnerved (sometimes English kinda dances around the center of the concept I am describing). .

Right, now your deviating completely from Plutchik's Wheel into your own ideals.


Which isn't a problem unless your basing your project off Plutchik's Wheel.


If you want to have a cosmology with different philosophical underpinnings, you're probably better off coming up with a new cosmology.

Exactly.
 

Thank you for pointing out these areas of ambiguity.

My goal in this exercise was not to simply re-skin the incoherent understanding of the cosmology presented in TSR books. I am describing the coherent world that was misunderstood by sages at TSR. Due to their attempt to describe it faithfully (through their misperceptions) there is a great deal of similarity between their description and the actuality, however it is far from completely accurate.

I did note that the place you call "Limbo" (which is more accurately labeled Uncertainty) did not completely exist as described by your sages, though some places within it resembled the traditional description of "Limbo". Pandemonium for its part does have some areas of claustrophobic entanglement where the demonic inhabitants use faint ghostly whispers to tempt, distract, and frighten their prey, but it is far from a place completely defined by tunnels. Acheron, though, has no floating cubes and such. My suspicion is that a sage somehow mistakenly wandered through a conduit that led from some goblinid power's realm on Belligerence to a crystal sphere with odd physics on the Prime.

However, that there are 16 places was correct. Indeed, the places seem in line with the conceptions of the alignments (Frustration, Revulsion, and Fear are all emotions which one would prefer not to experience, while Contentment, Love, and Excitement are all emotions which one would want to experience). The TSR sages also were usually correct in assignment of deities to places as well (e.g. Corellon Larethian in Exhilartion, Nerull in Horror/Wrongness, Garl Glittergold in Correctness/Righteousness, but Pelor is misplaced in Elysium as opposed to his actual realm in Serenity).

Although, Hobo is correct in pointing out that the places are not definitively demarcated. Each off cardinal place can be viewed as the combination of the two on cardinal places adjacent to it. For example: An exciting lovely thing is something which you are attracted to; an exciting but weird thing is something that arouses your curiosity; something that is weird and sometimes scary spooks you etc. However, each of the on cardinal places can also be viewed as a combination of the off cardinal places: Love is when you are attracted to something and it affirms that attraction; Excitement is when something curious also displays beauty; Puzzlement is when something arouses curiosity sometimes and then spooks you other times; etc. So really, something like "Correctness/Righteousness/Affirmation" is a component of Love (this is Love without Beauty, so like if you fell in love with a fugly chick because of how awesome she is as a person) but it is sort of also equally a part of "Contentment/Serenity".

What demarcates the places as separate are the conflicts in the off cardinal places. At any given time one could actually think of there being only four different places in the Outer Planes. Usually these are: The Alliance of Righteousness, The Alliance of Curiosity, The Trade of Horror, and the Pact of Boredom/Belligerence (separated by the conflicts between them in the on cycle). Sometimes the off cycle is in effect and the four places are the Rebellion of Beauty, The Panic of Spookiness/Nervousness, The Resentful Scrum, and The Defenders of the Status Quo. Contentment/Serenity is the place that allies with Nobility/Righteousness in the Games of Intrigue (on Passivity) and allies with "Inertia/Passivity" in the Righteous Debates (mostly because of how Content the Status Quo makes them). The off cardinal places can be though of as the range over which the front lines of these conflicts (when active) move.

Another example of the Wheel in action: You and your girlfriend are driving to Gencon in your 1983 Wagon Queen Family Truckster, which is of uncertain reliability at this point. Usually, you are cruising down the highway at top speed of 54mph. Sometimes you see some diners or highway rest signs making you Curious, but you're not sure it would be Right to stop at one of these roadside attractions due to your tight travel schedule and the necessity to make it to your evening motel reservations (this is the battle of the Beauty Contests between the alliance of Curiosity and the alliance of Righteousness). You daydream about stopping, but you're afraid of the car needing a jump if your were to stop (battle of Nervousness between the Horrible and the Curious). You know how much of a fit your GF would throw if you indulged your Curiosities, so you just bear down and try not to think about it (battle of Resentment between Frustration and the Horrible). But still, you can't help but think about how it could be possible, maybe if you just let the car run... (battle of Passivity between Serenity and Certainty).

Then, you see a sign, almost as if from a higher power: "World's Largest Ball of Twine". Now you are debating in your own head whether it is right to stop and likely inconvenience your GF or to just push on and never see this thing which you've ALWAYS wanted to see (battle of Righteousness between Attraction and the Status Quo). You think it will be really cool, but you've been let down by similar possibilities in the past (battle of Curiosity between Spectacularity and Uncertainty). Your GF though has seen this all before and can practically watch the gears turning in your head through your skull; and she is about to throw a Resentful fit, but isn't sure it is worth possibly pissing you off so much that you'll want to break up or just be rude the rest of the trip (battle of Horror/Wrongness between Resentment and Uncertain Fear), but she might just let you have it. However, you can tell she is getting resentful from that look she gets on her face, which distracts you from driving carefully and prompting her to snap "Watch where you're going!"; you debate whether to bring up that time she undercut you in front of your family and calling her a shrew or to just cool it (battle of Belligerence between Resentment and the Status Quo).

But since you're such a good couple, you realize the source of the tension and have it out in a Righteous Debate where a decision is agreed upon; preserving the relationship and ensuring Love Contests are again waged that evening :)
 

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