D&D 4E The Blood War in 4E?

[Hussar]

Oryan77 - Who's trolling? Mostly I've seen posts saying, "The Blood War is gone. Good riddance to something that I disliked in the game for years."

Is that trolling?

Gothmog has it right though. Why do we define demons and devils in terms of the Blood War? I rememeber reading the Fiendish Codex II and thinking, "Why is this creature a devil? It's pretty chaotic and evil." Heck, why is Malcanthet a demon? A scheming seductress bent on corrupting mortals. If that's what demons do, what do devils do?

I'm bloody happy that demons and devils are getting a makeover. I FAR prefer Obyriths to demons anyway. Demons have never really screamed Chaotic to me at all. Why do all these icons of chaos come in Types? Abyssal creatures shouldn't be about tempting mortals IMO. They should be terrifyingly destructive.

One very nice thing about the end of the Blood War is that I can see a devil using demons as foot soldiers. Devil summons a couple of demons to go destroy the town. Fantastic!

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Who said anything about having it both ways? You completely misread my statement. Devils, do not spend more time killing each other than they do harassing mortals. Devils aren't fighting the blood war with each other though, they're fighting it with Demons who they do not agree with. Thus, your statement does nothing to challenge my statement about the self destructive nature of evil.

I can see how folks would ask about the Bloodwar before asking whether or not Demons and Devils would still be evil. That kind of goes without saying.

The Bloodwar is the most creative and interesting thing about them, so of course some people are going to want to know it's still there.

Well, a constant war isn't exactly such a new idea (but that doesn't make it uncreative).
I definitely don't see it as interesting. If I remember correctly, "interest" comes from the latin "inter esse". "Being in between" or something like that is it. If the Blood War is primarily between Fiends, and you don't have much influence in it, and the fiends influence in the world is even reduced due to this war, how am I "in between", how am I interested in it? Reading a book about it, maybe. Being a player watching on the side-lines? Not so much...

Someone who wants planar adventuring to be more popular, not because they will make lots of money off of it, but instead because of what it is, will not want it changed into something totally different. That's the point I'm trying to make.

But apparently, the planar adventuring isn't popular for what it is. Or at least not as popular as it could be. So, why not change it?
Don't tell me "if it's not broke, don't fix it". That attitude would never get us to improve things! (But then, I am German, and accustomed to "Teutonic Over-Engineering", which is probably the other end of the spectrum... )

It seems like you're arguing that the most important thing to a gamer should not be the content of the game that they love, but how much many it makes their owners. The problem is, I don't care how popular the game is if I don't like it any more.

Well, it's not just because it makes more money for the game. It's also about what gamers want - that's why it can make money.

 

[Derren]

I rather have the blood war than another boring real life religion fallen angel story.
But one goal of 4E seems to be to remove everything which is unique to D&D and replace it with generic fantasy stuff so that new players can take their favorite fantasy cliches and feel right at home.

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point D&D will be renamed into D20 fantasy and become more bland than toolbox systems like GURPS.

 

[zoroaster100]

I never liked the Blood War, and won't miss it. I'm not sure I like the idea that demons are corrupted elementals. I liked them as supernatural counterpoise to angels. But it might not matter, so long as they still retain the archetypal flavor of hell/underworld beings and don't become evil elementals in flavor.

 

[Hussar]

I rather have the blood war than another boring real life religion fallen angel story.
But one goal of 4E seems to be to remove everything which is unique to D&D and replace it with generic fantasy stuff so that new players can take their favorite fantasy cliches and feel right at home.

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point D&D will be renamed into D20 fantasy and become more bland than toolbox systems like GURPS.

I'm sorry, but I have to laugh. We've seen post after post about how 4e is ramming the new setting down everyone's throat and making a game that is not a generic toolset that earlier editions were. Now, it's being claimed that it will be too generic and be a complete toolset like GURPS.

I do not envy game designers their job at ALL.

I have no problem with demons and devils having overlapping goals and abilities.

Do the roles dwarves and elves play ever overlap? Yes. You can have dwarven warriors and elven warriors, for example. Does the fact that these two races can occupy similar roles indicate some flaw with the game? No, I don't think it does.

Then again, D&D 4e seems to be taking a more cookie-cutter approach to things. Humans are from the plains, halflings from the rivers, and so forth. Everything will have its clear, unambiguous part to play.

I prefer a bit more mystery and uncertaintly. Everything occupying its own little slot with no overlap doesn't appeal to me at all.

That's not quite what's happening here though. Yes, both elves and dwarves can be fighters. And, demons and devils can both be brutes. However, look at it like this:

If they changed the flavour of dwarves so that they no longer lived underground, but lived in forests, revered nature and were thin, would they still be dwarves? No, they'd be elves with the wrong name tacked on.

Yet there's all sorts of cases, even in this thread of demons or devils that are not just overlapping, but entirely existing in the other group's playground. If demons and devils do the same things, use the same tactics and have the same goals, why do we need two kinds of monsters?

Put it another way, what differentiates demons from devils right now? Yes, there are some demons or devils you can point to and say, "Yup, that's pretty iconic". But, there's an awful lot of both groups that the only difference is a single letter in the alignment tag.

What's wrong with designing creatures that are distinct? What's the point of having two groups of creatures that are frequently indistinguishable?

 

[Lackhand]

I never liked the Blood War, and won't miss it. I'm not sure I like the idea that demons are corrupted elementals. I liked them as supernatural counterpoise to angels. But it might not matter, so long as they still retain the archetypal flavor of hell/underworld beings and don't become evil elementals in flavor.

Yes, but what did you like your devils to be?

I've always run my demon-backstory as qlippoth, cast of sparks of this (or a previous) creation. Sort of a necessary evil, a cost to pay for creating the multiverse, the flaw inherent in the work.
Perverted elemental sort of meshes with that, but I'll probably stick with my story anyway, since it's not like it'll make that big a difference.

I think the most interesting thing about this is that it might, conceivably, entice me to use Slaad, which otherwise I have never and would have never touched.

It also adds an interesting note to Githzerai monasteries: not only do the Githzerai toughen themselves by living amidst the Elemental Chaos, but they ring the edges of hell.

Damn, that's nice. New, and far improved, because now there are waystations that can be used as a base of operations for attacks on the edges (abseiling into the abyss?). Also, there's something very poetic about monks on the edge of the abyss, and it certainly doesn't hurt the Githzerai flavor of strength through Lawful opposition.

How do they continue to withstand the amassed hosts of hell? Probably by running when the running gets good, bringing their entire monastery with them. Limbo-shapers (Anarchs? I forget the exact term) just came into their own.

 

[Wolfspider]

Why can't a demon scheme? Why can't a devil be destructive? They are two different otherworldly races. Although there may be some racial tendencies (devils are generally organized, demons are generally chaotic), I don't see why things have to be so damnably clear-cut. That's like saying elves can never be anything other than disorganized and self-centered, and that dwarves can never be anything other than insular and clannish. If other races can contain individuals that go against the grain, why can't demons and devils? Why must it be that all devils are humanoid schemers and all demons are engines of destruction? This path leads to a boring lack of variation. Players will be able to identify a demon or devil on sight just because of its appearance, when before there was some doubt. In 3.5 and earlier editions, players were able to wonder whether that winged female creature going to try to seduce their characters or torture them to death or even consider that she might be some other kind of creature. With 4e, that mystery seems to be absent. Now if they see a winged female creature, they will know that it is a devil and a succubus.

It's a cookie-cutter approach, as I've mentioned before, and I don't like it.

 

[Wolfspider]

I definitely don't see it as interesting. If I remember correctly, "interest" comes from the latin "inter esse". "Being in between" or something like that is it. If the Blood War is primarily between Fiends, and you don't have much influence in it, and the fiends influence in the world is even reduced due to this war, how am I "in between", how am I interested in it? Reading a book about it, maybe. Being a player watching on the side-lines? Not so much...

The adventure path The Savage Tide published in Dungeon during it's last months is the best example I can think of that shows that the such interplanar politics can be very interesting and very involving for characters as well. There is no sideline-watching in that adventure!

 

[Lackhand]

Why can't a demon scheme? Why can't a devil be destructive? They are two different otherworldly races. Although there may be some racial tendencies (devils are generally organized, demons are generally chaotic), I don't see why things have to be so damnably clear-cut. That's like saying elves can never be anything other than disorganized and self-centered, and that dwarves can never be anything other than insular and clannish. If other races can contain individuals that go against the grain, why can't demons and devils? Why must it be that all devils are humanoid schemers and all demons are engines of destruction? This path leads to a boring lack of variation. Players will be able to identify a demon or devil on sight just because of its appearance, when before there was some doubt. In 3.5 and earlier editions, players were able to wonder whether that winged female creature going to try to seduce their characters or torture them to death or even consider that she might be some other kind of creature. With 4e, that mystery seems to be absent. Now if they see a winged female creature, they will know that it is a devil and a succubus.

It's a cookie-cutter approach, as I've mentioned before, and I don't like it.

Then why not have one race ("Fiends") and two teams, the Baatezu and the Tanar'ri that both pull members from the same race?
After all, if the point is that you want the behavior to be separate from the appearance or the genetics of the guy, then why not go all the way and just put that into which team (or kingdom, dominion, realm, philosophy, and so on) the individual hails from?

That "mystery" I look on as a bad thing, since it gets in the way of DM communication. They know it's a devil and a succubus, but they don't know what their interaction with it is going to be. They do know that, if they bear it ill will, they should break out the (magical, blessed) silver.

This is good and proper to my view.

 

[Seeten]

I'm surprised by how many people so passionately hate the blood war. I can't understand why.

Its a ridiculous excuse to explain why good always triumphs, due to evil being utterly retarded.

I have no interest in the big bad villains being retarded.