D&D 4E The Blood War in 4E?

[Dausuul]

What? She might want someone to worship her...or a pawn to play with...or someone to protect her...or a million other motivations to seduce someone to evil.

And how is corrupting a soul to evil going to get her any of that? Unless succubi have some way to stake a claim on a soul so that it goes into their service when its owner dies.

Seducing mortals into doing what the succubus wants is more plausible. But it would be pretty rare for the succubus to find a mortal who would actually be of much use to her in the Abyss.

Why in the world would you claim that demons aren't organized?

That would be as nonsensical as claiming that all elves, because they are generally Chaotic Good in alignment, have no organization at all and no respect for anything else but their own immediate desires and goals. The problem is that I seem to recall a lot of elven kings and queens and lords and knights and such in various campaigns, just as I recall that demons have lords and princess and other such titles which definitely indicate some kind of organization, even if it is based on personal power.

Because they're the living embodiments of chaos and evil. Elves are a race with chaotic tendencies, demons are chaos personified. And demons having lords and princes, in the sense we know them, has never made sense to me.

If creatures that embody Chaos are organized, then what the heck does Chaotic even mean?

So devils would never backstab each other if given a chance, or do something for selfish reasons that don't benefit their masters?

Oh, sure they would. But they'd work within the system. That is, after all, the point of Lawful alignment; the system is your friend, your path to achieving your goals. Chaotic alignment means the system is your enemy, holding you back and confining your options.

A devil sticks to the letter of the rules and tries to manipulate those rules for personal gain. A demon rips the rules up and tosses them out the window.

 

[Wolfspider]

And how is corrupting a soul to evil going to get her any of that? Unless succubi have some way to stake a claim on a soul so that it goes into their service when its owner dies.

Seducing mortals into doing what the succubus wants is more plausible. But it would be pretty rare for the succubus to find a mortal who would actually be of much use to her in the Abyss.

Perhaps she is rewarded with personal power by her master for every soul she corrupts and adds to the horde.[/quote]

Because they're the living embodiments of chaos and evil... if demons are organized, then what the heck does "chaotic" even mean?

"'Chaos' implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them." (PHB v3.5, p. 104)

Demons may resent the authority of their lord or prince or direct superior because they are envious of their power, but they will still obey their master, either out of fear or because they desire more personal power or whatever motivation.

As far as demons being the living embodiments of chaos and evil...perhaps in D&D4e, but this was not always so. In previous editions they were simply a powerful group of extraplanar creatures who wanted to increase their power while spreading evil.

 

[Dausuul]

"'Chaos' implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them." (PHB v3.5, p. 104)

Demons may resent the authority of their lord or prince or direct superior because they are envious of their power, but they will still obey their master, either out of fear or because they desire more personal power or whatever motivation.

No, they won't, because they value "unfettered personal freedom," they "act arbitrarily," and are "irresponsible" and "reckless." Obeying a master, for whatever reason, is fundamentally opposed to the Chaotic alignment. A demon would have to be forced into compliance, and would rebel as soon as its master's back was turned.

As far as demons being the living embodiments of chaos and evil...perhaps in D&D4e, but this was not always so. In previous editions they were simply a powerful group of extraplanar creatures who wanted to increase their power while spreading evil.

Um... what editions were you playing? The Great Wheel cosmology puts the Abyss squarely at the intersection of Chaotic and Evil, and demons are the native creatures of that plane. I don't have my rulebooks with me at the moment, but I'm fairly certain that the 3E Monster Manual explicitly states that demons embody chaos and evil, and it's implied in previous editions.

Edit: Actually, it's in the SRD. "Chaotic evil is sometimes called 'demonic' because demons are the epitome of chaotic evil."

 

[Wolfspider]

No, they won't, because they value "unfettered personal freedom," they "act arbitrarily," and are "irresponsible" and "reckless." Obeying a master, for whatever reason, is fundamentally opposed to the Chaotic alignment. A demon would have to be forced into compliance, and would rebel as soon as its master's back was turned.

So you're telling me that elves, because they are generally chaotic (good), are completely incapable of obeying their Queen? I wonder how she became queen then....

Um... what editions were you playing? The Great Wheel cosmology puts the Abyss squarely at the intersection of Chaotic and Evil, and demons are the native creatures of that plane. I don't have my rulebooks with me at the moment, but I'm fairly certain that the 3E Monster Manual explicitly states that demons embody chaos and evil, and it's implied in previous editions.

Edit: Actually, it's in the SRD. "Chaotic evil is sometimes called 'demonic' because demons are the epitome of chaotic evil."

I am talking about every edition of D&D that mentions demon lords and demon princes and describes how demons can summon other demons to do their bidding--which is at least since 1st edition. This certainly does imply that demons know how to cooperate and have a hierarchy of sorts and are not simply running around not having any goals or motivations other than what is in front of their noses.

And "epitome" does not exactly mean "embody." I would say that a fire elemental "embodies" the nature of the elemental plane of chaos, but I wouldn't necessarily say that a demon "embodies" Chaos and Evil....

 

[I'm A Banana]

Saying Chaotic creatures can have no organization is like saying Lawful creatures must obey the law.

Think bigger.

 

[D_E]

And how is corrupting a soul to evil going to get her any of that? Unless succubi have some way to stake a claim on a soul so that it goes into their service when its owner dies.

Actually, I would claim that as a physical embodyment of carnal lust, a succubus gets more powerful simply by forcing others to act out that sin. If I needed to do this mechanically, I'd give succubi XP towards a new HD every time they drain a level.

No, they won't, because they value "unfettered personal freedom," they "act arbitrarily," and are "irresponsible" and "reckless." Obeying a master, for whatever reason, is fundamentally opposed to the Chaotic alignment. A demon would have to be forced into compliance, and would rebel as soon as its master's back was turned.

I think this is broadly true, but their are a few mitagating factors.

First, books on the planes tend to portray Chaos as something which can be directed and sculpted by an act of will, just look at Limbo. Therefore, it's not supprising that Demon lords can force a certain amount of compliance from lesser demons.

Second, I'd imagine that orders from Demon lords are much more open ended than orders from Archdevils. Where an archdevil might order an erinyes to "travel to the city of X on the northern contenent of the planet Y, and seduce [important personage A] into my service through [inducements I, J, K]. You have one fortnight to accomplish this, and you will make nightly status reports by [specifed method of reporting back]. If neccesary you may contact [list of emergency contacts] ... " etc etc, and so on.

I'd imagine a Demon lord's instructions to a succubus might look more like this "Go [Here]. If you don't, I'll kill you. Do whatever you feel like, but it'd better be impressive."

Third, its sugested that a lot of the more orderly conventions of the Abyss are an artifact of the Lawful folks who catagorize stuff. So although the layers of the Abyss are numbered sequentially, this cooresponds only to the order in which they appear in the records of the Fraternity of Order. For example, the Steaming Fen is layer number 4, I believe, but in terms of accessablility is in fact one of the "deepest" layers of the Abyss. Likewise, while any devil would be able to name in order of precidence quite a lot of the nobility of Hell, the heirarchy of the Abyss is a much more fluid and subjective thing.

 

[IanB]

Chaotic Evil doesn't have to mean completely devoid of organization. In terms of extraplanar 'alignment exemplars' or whatever you want to call them, I would reserve the 'completely unable to organize in any way' niche for the slaad. Or would you also argue that the eladrin shouldn't have a queen, etc?

But that comment I just made is all framed in pre-4e great wheel, 9 alignments terms. I have no problem with the changes in 4e, because 4e is presenting a different system. There's no reason we have to frame the discussion about the 4e system in the terms that the 3e system uses.

In other words, it doesn't matter what a demon was in 3e, or how alignment used to work, if your only goal is to evaluate whether 4e cosmology works or not; a demon is something else in 4e. If 4e works and is internally consistent with itself, then it is a fine system.

But I hardly expect that people in general will be able to separate nostalgia from merit for this argument more than they can about any other topic!

 

[Dausuul]

So you're telling me that elves, because they are generally chaotic (good), are completely incapable of obeying their Queen? I wonder how she became queen then....

Elves are "Usually chaotic good." Demons are "Always chaotic evil" and "the epitome of chaotic evil." There's no comparison.

I am talking about every edition of D&D that mentions demon lords and demon princes and describes how demons can summon other demons to do their bidding--which is at least since 1st edition. This certainly does imply that demons know how to cooperate and have a hierarchy of sorts and are not simply running around not having any goals or motivations other than what is in front of their noses.

The ability to summon and control other demons hardly indicates organization, any more than the ability of a balor to use dominate monster does. It's a way that demons can directly compel one another through magic.

As for demon lords and princes: As I said, I don't have my books with me, but I'll have a look in the Fiendish Codex tonight. My understanding is that "demon lord" means, more or less, "extraordinarily big, bad demon." The will of a demon lord is such that it can shape the layer on which it resides, and drive lesser demons where it likes. It doesn't have an organization, just mobs of lesser demons that it throws in the direction of its rivals.

Of course, nobody said the 3E cosmology was internally consistent, either...

And "epitome" does not exactly mean "embody." I would say that a fire elemental "embodies" the nature of the elemental plane of chaos, but I wouldn't necessarily say that a demon "embodies" Chaos and Evil....

Fine, demons don't "embody" Chaos and Evil, they are the epitome of Chaos and Evil. Regardless, my point stands; demons as a race are the antithesis of organization.

Saying Chaotic creatures can have no organization is like saying Lawful creatures must obey the law.

Think bigger.

Once again--we're not talking about creatures that have chaotic alignment tendencies, we're talking about creatures whose entire essence is chaos and evil. These are creatures that paladins get a green light to destroy on sight, no matter what the circumstances, because they are Just That Bad.

Demons that deviate from the Chaotic Evil alignment are literally one in a million, if that. To suggest that demons, as a race, have organization, is to suggest that angels as a race have cruelty and malice, or that modrons as a race have disobedience. Yes, you might find that one-in-a-million counterexample. But not enough to affect the social order (or lack thereof) of demons as a whole.

Chaotic Evil doesn't have to mean completely devoid of organization. In terms of extraplanar 'alignment exemplars' or whatever you want to call them, I would reserve the 'completely unable to organize in any way' niche for the slaad. Or would you also argue that the eladrin shouldn't have a queen, etc?

I would say that "queen" should be taken with a grain of salt. If the eladrin are to Arvandor what demons are to the Abyss, then the eladrin "queen" should be no more than the wisest and most powerful eladrin. She doesn't rule the other eladrin in the sense of giving them orders--each eladrin makes up his/her own mind on everything--but her advice is greatly respected.

And I'll concede that demons are capable of organization on the level of "Go here or you die." But a real organization, where members fall into line and obey orders without having to be constantly cajoled or threatened by a superior, should be beyond them... as it should be beyond the eladrin. A demon out of its superior's reach should go rogue immediately.

But that comment I just made is all framed in pre-4e great wheel, 9 alignments terms. I have no problem with the changes in 4e, because 4e is presenting a different system. There's no reason we have to frame the discussion about the 4e system in the terms that the 3e system uses.

In other words, it doesn't matter what a demon was in 3e, or how alignment used to work, if your only goal is to evaluate whether 4e cosmology works or not; a demon is something else in 4e. If 4e works and is internally consistent with itself, then it is a fine system.

Much more consistent, in fact, than 3E was.

 

[IanB]

Much more consistent, in fact, than 3E was.

Well... as far as we know, anyway.

 

[Dausuul]

Well... as far as we know, anyway.

Point taken. But the removal of the ideologically-driven Great Wheel should do a lot for consistency all by itself, because planar beings will no longer have to be exemplars of their particular alignments. Talk about your alignment straitjackets...