D&D 4E The Blood War in 4E?

[Geron Raveneye]

Your point about ignoring the 3.x stuff is quite valid, everyone I've ever seen talk about how interesting the blood war is has referred to 2e products, I don't know anyone who's only read the 3.x products and been interested by the Great Wheel, especially before the fiendish codex stuff (which was at least a little bit better). In fact I don't know anyone who really liked using MotP or the Core Rulebooks planer stuff who didn't just use it to convert earlier fluff to 3.x.

Planescape is a great setting and I'd like to see it released again, but it's a setting, not a cosmology, wheras the 4e cosmology is designed to actually be used as a cosmology, and is being written by people who are actually interested in it (again, as opposed to many 3.x planer stuff seemed) which will hopefully make planer stuff actually intriguing for newbies.

Which is, maybe, because the 2E stuff was written to be interesting and inspiring, while the 3E stuff was 80% written to be descriptive instead, which simply makes it read like a textbook with a few half-catchy sentences inbetween. That doesn't mean the 3E stuff was written by authors who don't care about the planes...just that the focus was different. If you compare the MotP 1E with the popularity of Planescape, you could reach the same conclusion, and would be as wrong about the motivations of the authors.

But if you think the "cosmology" of 4E is to be used as anything but a setting extension (which the Great Wheel at first was used for, too, before it evolved into Planescape), then you must have read some totally different preview articles. To me, the whole 4E planar stuff goes away even further from "cosmology" as in "system that describes how the outer planes work", and a lot closer to "setting extension" as in "part of the default campaign world of 4E that is made for adventurers to have encounters in". The cosmology part is, in my opinion, deliberately simplified in order to keep it in the background, while the accessibility is simplified in order to integrate the different locations into the setting a lot faster. And nobody says that, in 3-4 years, there won't be its own setting book hatching from the planar seeds that they put in the soil of the 4E core books.

 

[GSHamster]

The Blood War worked best in Planescape. In a setting where belief defines reality, the Blood War is the ultimate example of two different philosophies duking it out in order to define the fundamental nature of evil.

Planescape was often described as "philosophers with clubs" and the Blood War represented the philosophers with the largest clubs.

What's often missed is that there were similar, though more subtle, frictions on the Good side. The entire Harmonium/Sensate conflict, the third layer of Arcadia, and the threat presented by the expansion of the formians.

Now, the Blood War didn't really need to be in other settings. I think it was a crucial part of Planescape, but is not necessary in the Realms or the new cosmology.

 

[StarFyre]

Pemerton:

Many of my campaigns include planar adventuring, but IF the party is smart, it was very easy, even at fairly lower levels before. My players did research, etc (in game) before adventuring somewhere (there are places in Sigil where you can do this for example).

What 4E does, is make the planes easier for just the 'standard' hack and slash style adventure to be written for any given plane (ie. let's drop this 20 x 20 room into the abyss...done). Yes, a party just charging through a gateway to Vudra would die in 2/3E... (and when I house rule my amolgamated 4e cosmology)...if Vudra existed in 4E, it would be probably easy to just charge in and start raising hell.

However, if a party either roleplayed superbly and got the info, OR made some good dice rolls (knowledge checks) in a library, you could learn that Vudra is very toxic (water is blood, air is toxic, lots of snakes, and these are the good things about the place)...and be ready....

Neither method is good or bad...it's a different design mentality. One is better, (IMHO, for players who like more detail, and will roleplay towards that detail; the 4E method is better for faster run, more hack n slash gameplay (or even hardcore roleplaying campaigns) but where extra minor details that take up time (ie. research at a library), isn't wanted).

Sanjay

 

[Dire Lemming]

Except of course, that's not so much a "metaphor" as a "fantasy cliche", since the majority of "evil" people in real life get along fairly well, (at least with their buddies and people who agree with them) and don't actually spend more time killing each other off than annoying normal people.

The majority of Devils don't spend more time killing each other than annoying normal people either. But they don't agree with the demons, so they do spend allot of time trying to kill them.

 

[small pumpkin man]

Which is, maybe, because the 2E stuff was written to be interesting and inspiring, while the 3E stuff was 80% written to be descriptive instead, which simply makes it read like a textbook with a few half-catchy sentences inbetween. That doesn't mean the 3E stuff was written by authors who don't care about the planes...just that the focus was different. If you compare the MotP 1E with the popularity of Planescape, you could reach the same conclusion, and would be as wrong about the motivations of the authors.

That's entirely possible. I made this assumption because many (all?) of the major 4e designers not only aren't interested in the Planescape stuff, but actively don't like it (despite knowing even less than me, which isn't that much). I made the assumption that this was part of the problem with the 3.x stuff, but you're right, the writing style did have a lot to do with it, I haven't read it in a while, but a lack of "how to make this interesting in your campaign" seems consistent with what I remember, which would be a serious problem, since that's what fluff should be for.

I am tangently aware that the Wheel existed before planescape, but I have no idea what it was like, or what the quality was.

But if you think the "cosmology" of 4E is to be used as anything but a setting extension (which the Great Wheel at first was used for, too, before it evolved into Planescape), then you must have read some totally different preview articles. To me, the whole 4E planar stuff goes away even further from "cosmology" as in "system that describes how the outer planes work", and a lot closer to "setting extension" as in "part of the default campaign world of 4E that is made for adventurers to have encounters in". The cosmology part is, in my opinion, deliberately simplified in order to keep it in the background, while the accessibility is simplified in order to integrate the different locations into the setting a lot faster.

I would completely agree, except I would exchange "encounters" for "adventures", and I completely think it's a good thing, it's a generic background, I feel it fits the idea of what PoL is supposed to be better than most PoL stuff, I feel there are good, interesting plot seeds there, I think they are working on the backgrounds and stories of the different creatures, while still leaving it open enough so that people can make the planes their own.

And nobody says that, in 3-4 years, there won't be its own setting book hatching from the planar seeds that they put in the soil of the 4E core books.

I kinda hope not, part of the reason I like them is that they're so generic, it's like "dark nasty place of the dead", "slightly creepy nature place", "place of chaos, fire and lightning", "place where gods and concepts live", you can fit several real world cosmologies into that without changing much (hell, you can play V:tM without too much trouble) If they write it up too much, it might get annoying, but then, I'll always have the base stuff.

 

[small pumpkin man]

The majority of Devils don't spend more time killing each other than annoying normal people either. But they don't agree with the demons, so they do spend allot of time trying to kill them.

Meh, either they waste their time killing each other (more so than good) which is a "metaphor" or a "incorrect cliche" as you decide, or they don't, in which case it doesn't really mean anything, you can't really have it both ways.

The problem is, a disproportionate amount of time and effort has gone into describing the blood war, because it's unique to D&D, until on some level it defined D&D fiends more than anything else, it's the part of planescape everyone knows about, more than sigil, more than the malleable nature of the planes, everyone knows about the blood war, as soon as people got some previews of demons and devils, people were like "but what about the blood war?", and that's wrong. Fiends should be about tempting mortals, about killing fleshbags, about making horrible deals, cursing the world and bringing about armageddon, yet the first thing people say when they see some previews of the 4e fiends is "They better still be in an unending war with those other fiends just like them over of philosophical differences". If that's the thing that sticks in peoples minds about D&D fiends, then they needed a redo.

 

[Mirtek]

Because the whole "evil fights evil because law hates chaos!" explanation felt silly, when it would make more sense for them to fight good (especially chaotic evil against lawful good). It makes more sense for evil to ally with evil to annihilate good before turning on itself, but the TSR "comic book code" made them portray all villains as incapable of overcoming the forces of good, no matter how much power is in their favor.

Actually no! Evil fighting against good doesn't make anymore sense than law fighting against chaos.

The evil vs. good thing just has become the basic 0815 cliche so anyone is used to it and suddenly shocked to see a system were this conflict is deplaced by something else.

in a cosmic war that's been going on for ages with no resolution (and is obvious to a three year old to be utterly pointless).

because a good vs. evil war isn't going to last ages with no resolution and mekes any three year seeing how pointless it is.

When I got into D&D at the beginning of 3e, I thought the Blood War was an awesome idea because it was completely original. I've read Paradise Lost and plenty of Good vs. Evil story. The Blood War is a unique take on the inter-relationship of good and evil.

Exactly. For all their talk about trying to create an unique D&D thing they're actually busy doing their best to make D&D as run of the mill as it can get

Why is the Blood War such a big deal? Surely it should be just one conflict among many - angel vs fiend, modron vs slaad, chaotic angel vs lawful angel and

These conflicts are the Blood War. Slaads clashing with Modrons ist just as much considered part of the Blood War as Devils clashing with Demons

 

[StarFyre]

the best way to think of the blood war, or the angels vs angels that they also have in planescape is what happens in the real world now...

Moderator Edit -No, it isn't


but anyways, to get back on track...

it's the same with the blood war. It's to give a real life twist....to show that the angels, demons, devils, etc aren'tjust mindless fodder to be killed. They are living breathing entities that have their own goals and desires. They do it for their own fundamental reasons (similar to what's happening in real world now).

But this all goes back to what someone above said.

in planescape materials, most of the books were background, ideas, worlds, etc. not rules. it was flavour that you could use if you wanted to add depth to the game.

3e lost that and 4e is just making it all 'easier' so that they can make nice little adventures that can fit into some setting, just as easy as putting it in the forgotten realms.

It's good that most of this stuff can be house ruled quite easily if needed.

I like a lot of the cosmology changes in 4E and will use some of it, but i will first be integrating it into my own customized planescape version that I use.

Not the great wheel, but still accomodates all the planes and their uniqueness

Mirtek said it best; that they are making D&D as run of the mill as it can get.

The thing is, that's what people want. Instead of spreading the game out and making it more unique/different and maybe making 'fundamental' changes that makes it even MORE different than anything we've seen before; they are just bringing it back to a regular good vs evil. Demons are random mindless killers, devils are fallen angels.... etc.

Sanjay

 

[FourthBear]

because a good vs. evil war isn't going to last ages with no resolution and mekes any three year seeing how pointless it is.

If the war between the celestials and the fiends (Good vs Evil) was portrayed as Planescape portrayed the Blood War, I would also complain about how pointless it was. In fiction that portrays conflicts between Good and Evil (and Law and Chaos for that matter), the conflict is not well reduced to two endless armies in permanent trench warfare, IMO. It is indeed a metaphor for a larger philosophical conflict, but I believe it is one that has had more than enough consideration. The game can continue to examine conflicts between good/evil, law/chaos, war/peace, wealth/poverty without having literal cosmic wars between representatives of these. Would a campaign about the struggle of the lower classes and the upper classes in a kingdom be strengthened by a cosmology that had wealth outsiders fighting continuously with poverty outsiders? The Blood War has had more than twenty years in the core rules. I don't see why it needs to be carried forward into 4e core.

 

[Rel]

There is absolutely no need to bring real world politics and religion into this discussion.