The Book of Exalted Deeds - It's Here! (merged - full ToC posted)

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there Grover, thanks for the reply!

(thanks also to Kobold Avenger earlier who also toughed upon this point)

Only the archons have a hierarchy as such. There's some discussion - as in who reports to which member of the Hebdomad. The other two races have a much more loosely structured society, although the eladrins have a ruling court.

Perhaps hierarchy is too specific a word, I think 'pecking order' may have been more akin to what I was after.

I think it would be a mistake to try to draw direct parallels between two unlike types of plane-born, and the book doesn't try to do that. They (tanar'ri, baatezu, yugoloths, rilmani, formians, slaadi, guardinals, eladrins, and archons) aren't the same race with nine different aspects, they're nine different races who manifest their respective alignments in nine entirely different ways.

I think you could make a case that they were all different aspects of the same race (but thats perhaps a discussion for another day); however, I do agree that power wise that does not necessitate any sort of direct parallels.

Though personally I would have thought rough parallels would be common, with numbers vs. organisation; and also sin vs. virtue governing a rudimentary cosmic disposition of such forces.

Some of them aren't even the original natives of their planes - there was another race that dominated the Nine Hells before the baatezu, the formians come originally from Arcadia, and the rilmani displaced a race called the kamarel. So the parallels aren't exact.

The origins of the Baatezu depends on which sourcebook you are reading at the time. I don't think being originally native to a plane is as fundamental as sharing that planes intrinsic ethos. As such the exodus of a race (or sub-race) that evolves/devolves would be an obvious occurance.

I think the adoption of the Formian race as the Lawful Neutral archetype (supplanting the Modrons) was a WotC political decision rather than for the ideas own sake.

The Rilmani have always seemed something of a non-entity of a race in my opinion, but maybe thats just a byproduct of their ambiguous identity?

But to answer your question, the closest equivalent to a balor or pit fiend among the archons would be the throne archon, which has a CR of 15. The equivalent among the eladrins would be the tulani, which has a CR of 18. See what I mean about inexactness? The maintainance of the cosmic balance doesn't depend on an ultraloth and a leonal arm wrestling every fifty years, so they don't have to be exactly matched in combat prowess. The celestials just have to be able to keep the fiends fighting one another and the Devil weighted down in his hole. And they have the angels on their side.

(Incidently, it looks like the leonal would win that arm wrestling match).

Ultroloths (and indeed Yugoloths in general) have been treated rather half-heartedly within 3rd Ed.

Whereas the 'poster boys' (Balors and Pit Fiends) have seemingly been given the red carpet treatment, notably so with the most recent (3.5) incarnations.

If anything the Yugoloths should comprise, pound for pound, the most powerful individuals. They don't have the numbers of chaos and they don't have the organisation of law, but they do have an inherant selfish streak unburdened by either (as per the outline of 'Neutral Evil' in the PHB).

 

[heirodule]

Yes, the book states that good aligned creatures should never kill other good aligned creatures even if they are at war. i.e. negotiate, maybe take prisoner, but do not kill.

DUH!

"Surrender that I may take you prisoner!"

"Why, will you kill me otherwise?"

"um, no"

-------

"Ok, stay in my jail"

"Why, will you kill me if I try to escape?"

"um, no"

-------

"Pay these lawful taxes"

"Why, will you put me in jail?"

"YES!"

"And if I try to escape you'll kill me?"

"um, no..."

-----------
Obviouly Lawful Good societies get by with alot of enchantments, charms, and Geases. (Which actually isn't a bad roleplaying hook...)

 

[Isida Kep'Tukari]

And the above example, boys and girls, is probably why most societies are Lawful Neutral.

 

[heirodule]

And the above example, boys and girls, is probably why most societies are Lawful Neutral.

I'd rather that be because the G alignment was *hard* not logically incoherent. "Taking prisoner" implies a threat of death. If the LG character won't actually kill anyone, there is nothing to threaten the prisoner with.

Of course, since we're stipulating that Good won't kill other good, then I guess refsuing to surrender implies a continued willingness to use deadly force, which means the other side is not actually good any more, which means you can kill them.

Problem solved

 

[allenw]

Human Monk
Feats
level 1: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Nymph’s Kiss, Stunning Fist

How do you get 3 non-monk feats at 1st level?

 

[Endur]

2 Exalted feats (Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty) as 1st level human.

Vow of Poverty gives you bonus Exalted Feats at the Fighter progression. i.e. one bonus feat at 1st level, etc.

How do you get 3 non-monk feats at 1st level?

 

[allenw]

I'm actually not sure if it's balanced or not. I'll need to give it some serious thought. The main worry for me is that someone like, say, a Wizard could get an insanely high boost to abilities and whatnot using spells. Mage Armor + Shield + Exalted equals 22 AC at 1st level - And naturally, it'll get worse.

Fear not. "Perfection" bonuses to AC (which are most of the ones you get from Vow of Poverty, including the +4 at 1st level) don't stack with Armor bonuses, which would include Mage Armor. As far as I can tell, a "Perfection" bonus equals an Armor bonus that also works vs. Brilliant Energy weapons.

 

[Endur]

Fighter progression for bonus feats. 1st, 2nd, every 2 levels

One Exalted feat every two levels?

 

[Endur]

2 exalted feats and you can't own anything other than peasant items, and you can't borrow anything.

Sorry, I don't have the book yet (stupid Wizards Australia), but what is the condition for the Vow of Poverty?

 

[allenw]

Fighter progression for bonus feats. 1st, 2nd, every 2 levels

Are you sure about 1st level? I don't have the book with me, but I recall it being only even-numbered levels. In fact, it would have to be, since you only get the Exalted feats if you already had the Vow before you earned the level, which could never happen at 1st.