The Book of Exalted Deeds - It's Here! (merged - full ToC posted)

[Darrin Drader]

Darren -- how can I convince my GM that the Vow of Poverty is balanced? It's perfect for my monk, and I figure at 12th level, when he can actually take it, he'll have AC 32, so any verbal ammo would be welcome ...

I would agree with Mouseferatu.

Aside from that, as a designer, and as a rules Rep, it is not my job to help you overrule your DM. If your DM thinks something is unbalanced for their game then they are probably right - it probably is unbalanced for their game. I personally don't allow Spring Attack into my game since I feel its unbalanced, and that's in the PHB, but that's another subject entirely.

 

[Lord Rasputin]

I would agree with Mouseferatu.

Aside from that, as a designer, and as a rules Rep, it is not my job to help you overrule your DM. If your DM thinks something is unbalanced for their game then they are probably right - it probably is unbalanced for their game. I personally don't allow Spring Attack into my game since I feel its unbalanced, and that's in the PHB, but that's another subject entirely.

Thanks. Personally, for two feats and losing all my items, I agree, but there wasn't a consensus at the table, and the guy who makes the group rules decisions wasn't there, and he's tight ...

Oh, FWIW, the book is nice, better than the BoVD (and plus you have the good fortune to be coming out at the same time as the Minatures Handbook, which will make you look really good). And I didn't expect to like it, either.

 

[allenw]

Baraendur,
The BoED looks pretty interesting so far.
However, there are a couple of problems with the "Sanctified Creature" template, which I'm hoping you can resolve.

1: It says it can't be added to Outsiders (evil), though the "Sanctify the Wicked" spell mentions no such restriction. Then the template goes on to say that recipients lose their baatezu, tanar'ri, and yugoloth subtypes (if any), which they couldn't have had in the first place if the original prohibition is accurate.

2: It says that the sanctified creature loses all its pre-existing supernatural and spell-like abilities, but the example creature, a Sanctified Young Red Dragon, retains its Breath Weapon (Su).

 

[Darrin Drader]

1. Clearly the line that states that it can't be applied to outsiders with the evil subtype is in error since it goes on to say that baatezu, tanari'ri, and yuguloths gain the good subtype. I wrote the sanctified creature template and it was never my intention that it couldn't be applied to evil outsiders. The spell was created specifically for that purpose, actually.

2. The sample creature for this template was done by someone else. I originally converted a different evil creature, so I can't say why the red dragon retains its breath weapon. Personally, I don't think any template should take away a dragon's breath weapon, including this one, since it is part of what makes a dragon unique. Yes, it requires the designer to bend the rules, but no rule should ever be so rigid that it can't be bent in the interest of a better game. I would make the same argument if this template were applied to a beholder or a mind flayer.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Should the CR of a sanctified Pit Fiend really be one higher than a normal Pit Fiend?

The loss of all supernatural and spell-like abilities is really harsh, and Aura of Menace doesn't go very far to make up for it.

Perhaps only [evil] spell-like and supernatural abilities should be lost?

 

[Endur]

If you think vow of poverty doesn't match magic items, try building a human monk with a vow of poverty.

Human Monk
Feats
level 1: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Nymph’s Kiss, Stunning Fist
level 2: Intuitive Attack, Deflect Arrows
level 3: Improved Grapple
level 4: Touch of Golden Ice
level 6: Servant of the Heavens, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike
level 8: Gift of Faith
level 9: Power Attack
level 10: Sanctify Ki Strike
level 12: Holy Ki Strike, Improved Critical Unarmed Strike
level 14: Exalted Spell Resistance
level 15: Cleave
level 16: Fist of the Heavens
level 18: Nimbus of Light,
level 20:

This leaves one Exalted Feat not taken yet (20) and one general feat not selected (18).

The vow of poverty also grants:
1) endure elements
2) no need for food or drink or breathing
3) enhancement bonus to hit and damage
4) deflection bonus to ac
5) exalted bonus to ac
6) natural armor bonus to ac
7) DR
8) Energy resistance (acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic)
9) Continuous freedom of movement and mind shielding
10) Regeneration
11) True seeing
12) Enhancement bonuses to ability scores
13) Resistance bonus on saving throws

Dream come true for a monk.

 

[Endur]

In the 1st edition DMG, E. Gary Gygax stated that it is possible for two lawful good nations to be at war with each other. Does the Book of Exalted Deeds explore how good aligned characters may come into conflict? For example, members of two rival faiths may work at cross purposes. Or two good kingdoms may go to war over any number of issues.

Yes, the book states that good aligned creatures should never kill other good aligned creatures even if they are at war. i.e. negotiate, maybe take prisoner, but do not kill.

Are there any rules discussing experience point awards for non-violent tasks? Such awards seem appropriate for characters that rely on diplomacy and cunning, or follow deities of peace. There have been a few people on these boards and elsewhere who claim that D&D is based on combat alone. (I would argue that role playing has been around since the game's origins, and that most players I know have more than one way to have their characters approach a problem.) Is there any reward, besides saving a soul from evil, of converting a creature from an evil alignment to good. (In the case of Sepulchrave II's story hour, the redemption of a succubus has wrought many changes in a campaign world.) Is there any discussion of what a redeemed devil or demon might mean to a society or a faith?

Yes, there are rules for giving out exp for other things than body count.

Also, does the book have any suggestions on how DMs and players can resolve moral dilemmas for characters? I don't expect the book to have all the answers, but does it have advice for how DMs can go beyond the book.

Some suggestions. But not as many as you would prefer.

 

[Anabstercorian]

If you think vow of poverty doesn't match magic items, try building a human monk with a vow of poverty.
This leaves 3 Exalted Feats not taken yet (8, 18, 20) and one general feat not selected (18).
Dream come true for a monk.

I'm actually not sure if it's balanced or not. I'll need to give it some serious thought. The main worry for me is that someone like, say, a Wizard could get an insanely high boost to abilities and whatnot using spells. Mage Armor + Shield + Exalted equals 22 AC at 1st level - And naturally, it'll get worse.
I'm not sure how to test, but I'm going to give it some thought.

 

[Endur]

It would have to be a sorceror, not a wizard. A wizard wouldn't be able to own spellbooks and maintain the vow of poverty.

I'm actually not sure if it's balanced or not. I'll need to give it some serious thought. The main worry for me is that someone like, say, a Wizard could get an insanely high boost to abilities and whatnot using spells. Mage Armor + Shield + Exalted equals 22 AC at 1st level - And naturally, it'll get worse.
I'm not sure how to test, but I'm going to give it some thought.

 

[GroverCleaveland]

Hi all!

Is there any discussion of the hierarchies within the rank and file Archons; Eladrin or Guardinals?

Only the archons have a hierarchy as such. There's some discussion - as in who reports to which member of the Hebdomad. The other two races have a much more loosely structured society, although the eladrins have a ruling court.

Alternatively, what are the CRs of the above?

I mean would the Sword Archon be the Archon equivalent of the Balor or Pit Fiend?

I think it would be a mistake to try to draw direct parallels between two unlike types of plane-born, and the book doesn't try to do that. They (tanar'ri, baatezu, yugoloths, rilmani, formians, slaadi, guardinals, eladrins, and archons) aren't the same race with nine different aspects, they're nine different races who manifest their respective alignments in nine entirely different ways. Some of them aren't even the original natives of their planes - there was another race that dominated the Nine Hells before the baatezu, the formians come originally from Arcadia, and the rilmani displaced a race called the kamarel. So the parallels aren't exact.

But to answer your question, the closest equivalent to a balor or pit fiend among the archons would be the throne archon, which has a CR of 15. The equivalent among the eladrins would be the tulani, which has a CR of 18. See what I mean about inexactness? The maintainance of the cosmic balance doesn't depend on an ultraloth and a leonal arm wrestling every fifty years, so they don't have to be exactly matched in combat prowess. The celestials just have to be able to keep the fiends fighting one another and the Devil weighted down in his hole. And they have the angels on their side.

(Incidently, it looks like the leonal would win that arm wrestling match).