D&D General The Brilliance of the Original Gygaxian Multiverse

[Flamestrike]

Raistlin is an inhabitant of the Prime material plane (Krynn) like Mordenkainen is an inhabitant of the Prime material plane (Greyhawk).

Both are different planes, both are Prime material planes (for their native inhabitants), and both are not Prime material planes (relative to that material planes non inhabitants).

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Also, there is 'the' Prime material, and other Prime material planes The question of which Prime material plane is 'the' 'the' Prime material plane is a subjective question and relative to the inhabitants of that plane.

The Prime Material Plane (or Physical Plane) houses the universe and all of its parallels.

In the Prime Material Plane are countless suns, planets, galaxies, universes. So too there are endless parallel worlds.

For those of you who haven't really thought about it, the so-called planes are your ticket to creativity, and I mean that with a capital C! Everything can be absolutely different, save for those common denominators necessary to the existence of the player characters coming to the plane. Movement and scale can be different; so can combat and morale. Creatures can have more or different attributes. As long as the player characters can somehow relate to it all, then it will work. This is not to say that you are expected to actually make each and every plane a totally new experience - an impossibly tall order. It does mean that you can put your imagination to work on devising a single extraordinary plane. For the rest, simply use AD&D with minor quirks, petty differences, and so forth. If your players wish to spend most of their time visiting other planes (and this could come to pass after a year or more of play) then you will be hard pressed unless you rely upon other game systems to fill the gaps.


Yeah, that's just not correct. I mean, you can have your opinion, and that's great, but it has nothing to do with the Gygaxian multiverse.

Anyway, "worlds," "realms," and "planes" are used interchangeably for the infinite number of places within the Prime Material Plane.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Raistlin is an inhabitant of the Prime material plane (Krynn) like Mordenkainen is an inhabitant of the Prime material plane (Greyhawk).

Both are different planes, both are Prime material planes (for their native inhabitants), and both are not Prime material planes (relative to that material planes non inhabitants).

This is just wrong.

Again, if that is how you want to do it, that's great, but this thread is about "the brilliance of the original Gygaxian multiverse," not your ideas, however good they might be.

 

[Flamestrike]

This is just wrong.

No, it's not.

Raistlin was born into a different material plane of existence than Mordenkainen and Elminster were.

From each of their perspectives the material plane they were born in is 'the' Prime material plane, and the other two guys inhabit different (alternate) material planes.

They're all correct. Relative to their point of view.

You're looking at the Prime material plane as if it is an objective thing. It isnt; its subjective to the inhabitants of that material plane.

This accords with similar positions you can find in Quantum mechanics and the uncertainty principle, and special relativity as well for what its worth.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

(a lot of stuff)

This accords with similar positions you can find in Quantum mechanics and the uncertainty principle, and special relativity as well for what its worth.

I will just point out that I gave you the historical basis for what I was saying, provided the quotes to you from Gygax, and then noted that I was specifically referring to the Gygaxian view of the D&D multiverse.

You then spewed a bunch of unsourced nonsense, and said it was in accord with quantum mechanics (!?!), the uncertainty principle (??!!??) and special relativity (???!!!???).

I am not continuing this conversation.

 

[Mort]

I will just point out that I gave you the historical basis for what I was saying, provided the quotes to you from Gygax, and then noted that I was specifically referring to the Gygaxian view of the D&D multiverse.

You then spewed a bunch of unsourced nonsense, and said it was in accord with quantum mechanics (!?!), the uncertainty principle (??!!??) and special relativity (???!!!???).

I am not continuing this conversation.

I believe @Flamestrike is giving you the official way to look at Prime Material planes from the original Manual of the Planes (from 1987, Appendix I) - just to source it. It's after Gygax left TSR but not long after - and seems to fully comport with his views on the multiverse.

 

[Flamestrike]

I will just point out that I gave you the historical basis for what I was saying, provided the quotes to you from Gygax, and then noted that I was specifically referring to the Gygaxian view of the D&D multiverse.

Where you clearly misquoted him, and didnt understand it notwithstanding that misquoting.

Krynn is not simply another world in the same universe as Greyhawk or Faerun, it sits within a different material plane entirely. To travel between those different material planes you have to either Spelljam or utilise planar travel.

If Gygax was referring to the multiverse, he likely was referring to it in the context of the material plane containing Oerth being 'the' material plane. Which (relative to the inhabitants of Oerth), it is.

It's no different to Mordenkainen (Garys proxy) telling you Oerth sits in 'the' Prime material plane, while Elminster and Dalamar (who he has hung out with) are from different material planes (and vice versa).

They're all correct; from their own points of view.

Again; Rick Sanchez is no longer in his own Prime material plane (Earth C-137), leaving it after Kronenburging it and abandoning his family to live in an apocalyptic nightmare. He is now resident in Earth C-132 (an entirely different material plane, that is not the Prime material plane for him).

However for his daughter, her husband and everyone else in that plane, Earth C-132 is 'the' Prime material plane. Relative to them.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I believe @Flamestrike is giving you the official way to look at Prime Material planes from the original Manual of the Planes (from 1987, Appendix I) - just to source it. It's after Gygax left TSR but not long after - and seems to fully comport with his views on the multiverse.

The two problems with that are that I was explicitly discussing the Gygaxian view (which predates the MoTP), and made sure to note in the OP that the period starting with the MoTP is when it all started to go wrong in terms of the planar structure.

Of the many terrible sections of the MoTP, I would say that Appendix I is the terrible-est. Has anyone ever tried to use Appendix 1? I've yet to meet that person, and this is coming from someone who, at one point, could recite the Limbo section by heart.

 

[dave2008]

On the bold part, there is a necessary and vital distinction. Look at how you are framing it- one Athas. And then trying to place it.

But the original conception is that not only does Athas share the Prime with other settings (and genres, etc.), but Athas shares the Prime with other Athases!

All possible Athases, with all possible histories, are contained within the Prime. So whether you find that more useful or not, it does greatly change the perception of what is allowable and permissible in D&D in the following ways:

1. First, characters are explicitly portable between campaigns. This is something that always used to be assumed, but (for whatever reason) rarely happens anymore; part of the reason is because the conception people have of the setting has changed.

2. Second, there is no single "official" Athas; just the Athas you happen to be playing in. Your Athas is just as official as the Athas of someone else. For that matter, you Forgotten Realms campaign is just as official as that of Ed Greenwood.

3. Further, there is no "canon." All possible Athases have happened, and will happen. Is your Athas hard to get to? Great! But it can be easy, too. Or maybe the gnomes survived and prospered. Or the kender invaded. It all works.

That's the interesting and useful part to it. IMO.

There is nothing in my statement that disagrees with your statement. Not sure what your suggesting. The idea of "official" and "canon" has always been a fallacy IMO.

 

[DND_Reborn]

All this has happened before, and will happen again.