D&D General The Canadian Influence on the Forgotten Realms

[Paul Farquhar]

I decided it would be best to spin this off into it's own discussion.

The original creator of the Forgotten Realms is Ed Greenwood who is a Canadian Librarian and Author and for those who knew what to look for the Forgotten Realms is infused with Canadianess. This makes it distinct in a way from all the American created settings. Which is not to say that FR doesn't have some American influences, it does, or that the Canadian influence strong in every part of FR, but it's a very Canadian setting at heart.

You see it in the environmental descriptions and the way heart urban centres are weaved together with vast and I mean vast regions of nature and rural farming regions, the fact that most of the races and cultures of FR are in fact immigrates to the world.

You see it in the fact that around the great cities of the Swordcoast you Native American like Tribes of Uthgardt.

You see it in the Parliamentary Democracy of Turmish.

You see it in the farm communities of the Dales.

You see it in the Law and Good government ideals of Cormyr.

You see it in the two solitudes of Aglarond and its history.

You see the era of Hudson's Bay (a corporation that ruled most of what would become Canada before Canada bought the land from them) in Merchant Ruled nations like Sembia and Amn.

You see it in the multiculturalism of the setting, the greater comfort with diverse forms of sexuality in the setting, and so on.

Ed Greenwood was the biggest Canadian influence on FR, but he is not the only one, Bioware which made the BG games was also Canadian and there possibly others.

Thoughts?

Extending it to North America generally, Icewind Dale looks suspiciously like Alaska.

To someone who isn't American, the Americanness of FR (and especially the North West of Faerun) is perhaps more apparent, and makes for an exotic contrast to the very English Middle Earth.

I hold Bioware (based in Edmonton) responsible for establishing the look of the Flora and Fauna of the Sword Coast though.

Canadian Forest:

English Forest:

There is also a North American worldview colouring the more exotic cultures of the East. Notice how those Red Wizards wizards switched from trying to take over the world with raw power to using commerce and the magic item trade round about the same time as the fall of the Soviet Union in the real world?

You see it in the Law and Good government ideals of Cormyr.

This seems like an outsider's view of Norman England & France to me. You need a licence to carry a weapon, and there is an obsession with Knights, nobility, chivalry and courtly romance.

 

[Lanefan]

That was true before the microbrew explosion of the last several years. Not anymore.

Exactly.

And where in North America did said microbrewing explosion originate? Oh yeah, right here in Victoria!

(actually there might have been one or two other points of origin as well, but Victoria did have arguably the first microbrewery on the continent and still, according to CNN last year, ranks among the top ten beer brewing cities in the world)

Canadian Rye Whiskey, is under appreciated, however.

Suits me fine - can't stand whisky of any kind, personally.

 

[dave2008]

At least Americans have finally more or less figured out that Canadian beer is better.

I'm not sure how to understand this. Beer is horrible, so does that mean Canadian beer is better at being horrible?

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Is this going to turn into a discussion about the nature of dire beer?

 

[gyor]

Geographically, climatologically, etc. there's many similarities between much of southern Canada and more or less the northern half of the USA.

Culturally, there's generally some similarity close to the border but get anywhere deeper into the USA and that similarity diminishes rapidly; in large part due to the influences of significant cultural minorities. The USA, for example, has far greater influence from its African-American and Latino populations than does Canada; in contrast Canada has far more influence from its French-Canadian and (in the west, anyway) Asian populations than does the USA.

Politically, there's a rather sharp divide at the border no matter how you slice it.

At least Americans have finally more or less figured out that Canadian beer is better.

In the GTA where I live (Greater Toronto Area, not Grand Thieft Auto!) are also very diverse, lots of Asians, Caribbeans, Iranians, East Indians, even in some of the more rural parts of the GTA where I live.

 

[Aldarc]

And where in North America did said microbrewing explosion originate? Oh yeah, right here in Victoria!

(actually there might have been one or two other points of origin as well, but Victoria did have arguably the first microbrewery on the continent and still, according to CNN last year, ranks among the top ten beer brewing cities in the world)

If you never get out of Victoria, I could see how you would think that. From what I have read microbreweries were already present in the United States by at least 5 years before Canada's first in 1981. The Beer in Canada article on Wikipedia even mentions how Canada's microbrewery scene didn't come around until after movements were underway in the UK and the US.

But maybe this is another Canadian influence on the Forgotten Realms: laying claim on cool things that come from prior settings (i.e., Greyhawk).

 

[Bitbrain]

Sorry to the Canadians but is Canada really all that different from the Northern USA? and arent you guys like all ‘North America’

A good friend of mine once explained Canada to me as follows:

“Imagine that you are sleeping back to back with a bull elephant who trumpets in his sleep and has irritable bowel syndrome. The US is the elephant in this scenario.”

 

[gyor]

If you never get out of Victoria, I could see how you would think that. From what I have ready microbreweries were already present in the United States by at least 5 years before Canada's first in 1981. The Beer in Canada article on Wikipedia even mentions how Canada's microbrewery scene didn't come around until after movements were underway in the UK and the US.

But maybe this is another Canadian influence on the Forgotten Realms: laying claim on cool things that come from prior settings (i.e., Greyhawk).

Canada er I mean the Forgotten Realms merely claimed things from other settings to add to it's perfection.

 

[Tyler Do'Urden]

Ehminster?

 

[Lanefan]

I'm not sure how to understand this. Beer is horrible, so does that mean Canadian beer is better at being horrible?

No, it's better at being beer; and beer is the foundation upon which our games are built.

 

[dave2008]

No, it's better at being beer; and beer is the foundation upon which our games are built.

OK, so from my perspective: more horrible, thanks for the clarification

PS - I have nothing against beer, I just find pretty much all alcoholic beverages disgusting.

 

[Lanefan]

PS - I have nothing against beer, I just find pretty much all alcoholic beverages disgusting.

Good.

More for me.

 

[mach1.9pants]

Blame Canada South Park GIF - Blame Canada South Park - Discover & Share GIFs

Click to view the GIF

tenor.com

 

[Marandahir]

I think you also see it with the Sea of Fallen Stars and its many, many, many inlets and the Great Lakes and Hudson Bay and the giant lakes of Canada in general).

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Possibly. I was inclined to think of the Sea of Fallen Stars as a Mediterranean analogue, but it's on roughly the same latitude of "Cool Temperate" regions like Baldur's Gate.

Which countries grow grapes in the FR?

I've been playing the Witcher 3 Blood and Wine expansion whilst shut in: Toussaint is unashamedly southern France.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Canadian Forest:

English Forest:

This makes me finally understand why my players threat forest on the map as blocking terrain; the canadian forest seems way more dense than what the adventures assuming pseudo-european location usually describe. We live in Québec, and this is something I noticed: the idea of having a large fight in a forest dense as the canadian forests seems far-fetched, there's no way I could swing a 2-handed weapon or easily find a clear shot with a longbow in the forests I have nearby.

Same thing with winter: adventuring in the deep winter is just not a possibility in the mind of my players, unless there's a ''end of the word'' incentive.

 

[cmad1977]

This makes me finally understand why my players threat forest on the map as blocking terrain; the canadian forest seems way more dense than what the adventures assuming pseudo-european location usually describe. We live in Québec, and this is something I noticed: the idea of having a large fight in a forest dense as the canadian forests seems far-fetched, there's no way I could swing a 2-handed weapon or easily find a clear shot with a longbow in the forests I have nearby.

Same thing with winter: adventuring in the deep winter is just not a possibility in the mind of my players, unless there's a ''end of the word'' incentive.

YeH. My experience is similar. Forests in California don’t seem to have the same obfuscating density of western Canadian forests. It’s still a forest and plenty thick for a city boy like me but it’s not... BC type stuff.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

The original creator of the Forgotten Realms is Ed Greenwood who is a Canadian Librarian and Author and for those who knew what to look for the Forgotten Realms is infused with Canadianess. This makes it distinct in a way from all the American created settings. Which is not to say that FR doesn't have some American influences, it does, or that the Canadian influence strong in every part of FR, but it's a very Canadian setting at heart.

You see it in the environmental descriptions and the way heart urban centres are weaved together with vast and I mean vast regions of nature and rural farming regions, the fact that most of the races and cultures of FR are in fact immigrates to the world.

You see it in the fact that around the great cities of the Swordcoast you Native American like Tribes of Uthgardt.

You see it in the Parliamentary Democracy of Turmish.

You see it in the farm communities of the Dales.

You see it in the Law and Good government ideals of Cormyr.

You see it in the two solitudes of Aglarond and its history.

You see the era of Hudson's Bay (a corporation that ruled most of what would become Canada before Canada bought the land from them) in Merchant Ruled nations like Sembia and Amn.

You see it in the multiculturalism of the setting, the greater comfort with diverse forms of sexuality in the setting, and so on.

Ed Greenwood was the biggest Canadian influence on FR, but he is not the only one, Bioware which made the BG games was also Canadian and there possibly others.

Thoughts?

So I'm Canadian too, and I have never once thought of FR as Canadian. Sure there are commonalities, but these are likely more accidental than anything purposeful.

The urban vs rural sprawl is a pretty common thing in Medieval Europe, which FR seems to be inspired by more than modern Canada.

The tribes of Ulthgardt have much in common with Native Americans as well as those in Canada (I find it interesting in your OP you used that term instead of the Canadian term Indigenous Peoples).

Parliamentary Democracies are not unique to Canada, and of course originated in England.

Farming isn't unique to Canada, not sure why I need to even point this out.

Aglarond isn't the two solitudes, it's one culture ruling a different one. That's not really what the solitudes was, and is a pretty common thing in many regions throughout history.

The merchant nations have more in common with the British East India trading company than they do with the Hudson's Bay one, if you look at the exoticism of those merchant nations.

Multiculturalism is not unique to Canada (the US, UK, Australia, France), and regions of Canada like Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Alberta are not really that diverse, especially outside of the urban centers.

My larger point here isn't that you're exactly wrong; if you look hard enough and squint you can find similarities between aspects of FR and Canada. However, if we actually look back and try to devise Ed Greenwood's actual creation of FR, do I think we was pulling from Canadian influences? IMO, I really doubt it. More likely he pulled from several different societies from across history, like most good world-creators.

 

[gyor]

So I'm Canadian too, and I have never once thought of FR as Canadian. Sure there are commonalities, but these are likely more accidental than anything purposeful.

The urban vs rural sprawl is a pretty common thing in Medieval Europe, which FR seems to be inspired by more than modern Canada.

The tribes of Ulthgardt have much in common with Native Americans as well as those in Canada (I find it interesting in your OP you used that term instead of the Canadian term Indigenous Peoples).

Parliamentary Democracies are not unique to Canada, and of course originated in England.

Farming isn't unique to Canada, not sure why I need to even point this out.

Aglarond isn't the two solitudes, it's one culture ruling a different one. That's not really what the solitudes was, and is a pretty common thing in many regions throughout history.

The merchant nations have more in common with the British East India trading company than they do with the Hudson's Bay one, if you look at the exoticism of those merchant nations.

Multiculturalism is not unique to Canada (the US, UK, Australia, France), and regions of Canada like Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Alberta are not really that diverse, especially outside of the urban centers.

My larger point here isn't that you're exactly wrong; if you look hard enough and squint you can find similarities between aspects of FR and Canada. However, if we actually look back and try to devise Ed Greenwood's actual creation of FR, do I think we was pulling from Canadian influences? IMO, I really doubt it. More likely he pulled from several different societies from across history, like most good world-creators.

1. Ed Greenwood would have been far more familiar with Canadian History and Geography when he started creating the Forgotten Realms as a child, it would have been apart of his education system and the region he lived in and explored.

2. I actually normally use First Nations or FN for short when discussing the issue among follow Canadians, but this time I choose a term I thought more folks would be familiar with.

3. I'm aware of where Canada got it's Parliament, but Ed Greenwood didn't grow up in England, he grow up in Canada which is the Parliament he would have been most familiar with.

4. The farming comment was a minor one.

5. Anglo Culture (the British) ruled over and dominated Francophone Cultural from the beginning. It was really only with the quiet revolution that really started to change. I mean yes Lower Canada (Quebec) willingly joined with Upper Canada to form Canada, but both were still ruled ultimately from Britian until much later. And while the Elves and Half Elves were originally conqueored they've evolved over time into more of a partnership with bouts of Yuirwood Seperatist movements, including one in 5e FR. Also there was a FN population of humans in the Yuirwood which some of the Elves mated with to produce half an elves. If you think about the FN human tribe of the Yuirwood as like Canada's FNs, the Elves as Francophones, the none Yuirwood humans as Anglophones and the Half Elves as Metis then it's hard not to see the Canadian connection. It's also a bilingual. And even the later immigration by an abused minority (Tieflings and others) from Thay is a reminder of the Underground Railway to Canada from the American South.

6. Amn is somewhat exotic, but not too exotic and Sembia isn't exotic at all. Ed Greenwood didn't grow up in the West Indies, he grew up in Canada, and as a child when he first started creating FR, he would have been recieving an education on Canadian history primarily including the Hudson's Bay Company.

7. Actually none of those nations to my knowledge support Multiculturalism as state policy and law like Canada does and in fact both the US and France out right reject the idea of Multiculturalism. The US is instead a "Toss Salad" and France expects immigrants to straight up assimulate. The UK just broke off from the EU in large part as a rejection of Multiculturalism. I'm not as certain about New Zealand or Australia. Merely accepting immigrates from other parts of the first world is not enough to make a nation multicultural, it's s much bigger and broader policy then that.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

So I'm Canadian too, and I have never once thought of FR as Canadian. Sure there are commonalities, but these are likely more accidental than anything purposeful.

It can be hard to see from the inside. I wasn't aware of just how English the Shire was until I had more contact with other cultures. And I don't think anyone is suggesting Greenwood set out to make a Canadian campaign setting, just that he drew on his own experiences, which happened to be Canadian.

Parliamentary Democracies are not unique to Canada, and of course originated in England.

Don't believe the propaganda. The UK was a long way behind other countries, including the USA and Canada, in granting a vote to anyone who wasn't a minority wealthy land-owner.