The Chump is Stumped out!

WizarDru said:
Given the obvious benefits to being a cleric in a D&D world, and the vast utility of many low-level D&D spells, how would you prevent magic from changing many of the foundations of a medieval setting? To wit: Stone shape is a neat spell, and if you have plenty of time, you can do some amazing things with it. The same can be said for purify food & water, pyrotechnics, Endure elements, Detect poison, mending, mount, floating disk, unseen servant and so on. How do you have a stonecutter's guild when the temple only needs two acolytes to not only mine the stone, but work it, too?

Three factors: Social pressure, medieval mindset, and wealth.

Least important, but still important: Social pressure: Don't rock the boat, those who have more power/wealth don't like it and they'll make you feel their wrath in many ways.

Middle importance: Medieval Mindset: Tradition is more important than innovation. Social ties and responsibilities are very important.

Very Important: Wealth: The wealthy will use magic to do as you say, and they'll use magic to prevent others from using magic. (See the Lyre of Building section below)

Here's a long excerpt from the building appendix of A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe. It addresses some of your points. Note the cost effectiveness breakdown... sometimes its just cheaper to get people to do it than to use magic.

Magic
This system is constructed using information from the medieval period. It approximates the costs encountered by medieval builders, but it does not take into account the effects magic has upon building. Magic, as it does everywhere, adds another layer of ease and complication to the building process; ease in that it speeds construction, complication in that it is an additional factor of consideration when discussing construction. In order to recognize the power of magic for building, all appropriate spells, magic items, and monstrous creatures from the core rules are listed and explained. Their effects, and the requirements for those effects, are explained as well.

Magic is applied to construction after determining final cost and construction time. When a structure’s final cost is reduced, its construction time is similarly reduced. All magic that affects the final cost of a structure will reduce construction time. Magic costs are applied after determining the final cost of a structure. For example a castle costs 5,000,000 gp build. The PC spends 500,000 gp in many different types of magic to lower the castle’s final cost to 4,600,000 gp. The castle is built faster because the final cost is 4,600,000 gp, and this final cost determines construction time. The PC actually spent 5,100,000 gp. Magic here, was more expensive in the long run, but the castle was built quicker (roughly 35 weeks quicker).

Magic Spells
Magic reduces the cost or time of construction. It can also increase cost to the benefit of time. As any GM knows, attempting to rationally determine the effects of magic on building is ludicrous. Magic varies tremendously, and building specifics vary tremendously. There is no way to accurately account for every circumstance. A GM must exercise discretion when applying magic to construction.

To calculate the magical effects on construction, create a structure as if no magic is used in its construction. The results provide the mundane cost and construction time of a structure. Many spells reduce cost of construction and the associated time of construction, but the spells often cost more than the amount reduced. The difference should be added to the total cost after all magic is calculated. A building’s final cost is a static number that does not change until after all magical effects are calculated. For example a GM prices a castle. He then takes the 200 spells cast during the construction and determines their effects on the final price of his castle. Once all spells have been calculated, he alters the final cost and time of construction to represent each single effect. Spells do not serially alter cost or time. For example: A PC casts two spells on a structure. One reduces the final cost by 1%, while the other reduces final cost by 10 gp. Both of these spells are applied to the final cost of the structure, not the magically-modified final cost. In effect, spells do not “stack.”

Each spell has this format: name, description, common uses, cost, break-even point, cost equations (if necessary), and time effects. Break-even point explains the effect of the spell. If the effect of the spell is equal to the mundane cost of duplicating the spell effect, the spell is no more or less expensive than mundane methods. All spells are considered as if cast by a spellcaster of the lowest possible level.


Animate dead: There is nothing quite as useful to a builder as an undead laborer. They never need warmth, sleep, or food, and they do not fear, tire, complain, or riot. Unfortunately they are the walking dead, which is rather disturbing to most sensible people. In places where the undead are allowed as workers, they can perform basic repetitive tasks. This alleviates the need for much of the laborer associated with most construction sites.

Cost: 150 gp for hire + 50 gp per undead, 50 gp per undead if PC can cast. Break-even point: The first undead must perform 20,000 hours of manual labor to break even with the cost of hiring a living human. Every PC-created undead or every undead after the first must perform 5,000 hours of manual labor to break even with the cost of hiring a living human. Cost equation: Labor is 40-60% of a structure’s cost. Of the 40-60% labor cost, 10-30% is basic labor that an undead can perform. The remainder requires the exercise of thought and judgment. If all simple labor is performed by undead the final cost of a structure is reduced by 4-18%. Time effects: Time effects are included by reduced cost of construction.

Fabricate: Fabricate is a useful spell for creating small constructions. It’s not very cost effective, but it speeds up construction times in structures involving non-mineral materials. Fabricate is often used to quickly create lumber of a specific size. It can create very large single beams or small siege engines.

Cost: 450 gp hire or (free) PC. Break-even point: Whenever the fabricated structure is of greater value than the cost of hiring humans to create the structure. Fabricate is very rarely cost effective. Cost equation: determine the amount of the structure effected by fabricate, divide that amount by the total size of the structure, multiply that amount by the total cost of a structure to determine the amount of gp a fabricate spell is equal to for that structure. More than likely this will be less than 450 gp. Time effects: Subtract the amount of gp fabricate is equal to as determined in cost equation from the final building cost to determine construction time.

Move earth: Move earth has long been a favorite for construction, as it reduces excavation costs. Though every cubic foot removed from one area is added to another area, carriage (moving the newly moved earth, to another location) may still apply.

Cost: 660 gp for hire or (free) PC. Break-even point: One move earth spell can move 56,250 cu ft of earth, but to no greater depth than ten feet per casting. The earth moved does not need sidings (it is stable), but many constructions require sidings for structural reasons. Most moats are bricked or lined with stone. Move earth will usually be more expensive than mundane methods. Cost equation: remove all cu. ft. affected by move earth from excavation costs if no siding is required and no carriage is required to move the newly moved earth. If siding or carriage is required, cut cu. ft. price of excavation in half. For example: excavation, earth (stone braces/siding) would cost 0.025 gp per cu. ft. after a move earth spell as opposed to the standard 0.05 gp per cu. ft. Time effects: Time effects are included by reduced cost of construction.

Soften earth and stone: Another useful excavation spell, soften earth and stone, reduces costs and time of excavation. It is more commonly used than move earth due it lower level.

Cost: 60 gp for hire or (free) PC. Break-even point: one soften earth and stone spell affects 30 cu. ft., 60 cu. ft., 90 cu. ft., or 120 cu. ft. of material depending upon the hardness of the affected material. Cost equation: One soften earth and stone reduces all excavation to the next lowest class of excavation. For example: excavation, stone drops to excavation, earth (stone braces/siding). Time effects: Time effects are included by reduced cost of excavation.

Stone shape: Stone shape is often used in quarrying, creating arches, stone excavation, and preliminary sculpture.

Cost: 150 gp for hire or (free) PC. Break-even point: one stone shape spell affects 15 cu. ft. Cost equation: depending on style and frequency of use, stone shape will reduce total costs by a very low percentage of total costs. Time effects: Time effects are included by reduced cost of construction.

Transmute mud to rock: A spell not commonly used in construction, transmute mud to rock is mainly used to create stone when a quarry is far away. Often workers fill molds full of mud before casting the spell to reduce as much shaping of the stone as possible. In such circumstances, transmute mud to rock can save significant gp for its beneficiary.

Cost: 450 gp for hire and (free) for PC. Break-even point: one transmute mud to rock affects 18,000 cu. ft. of mud. Cost equation: one transmute mud to rock spell negates carriage costs for the amount of rock affected. Time effects: Time effects are included by reduced cost of construction.

Transmute rock to mud: The more common of the transmute spells used in construction, transmute rock to mud is another excavation spell.

Cost: 450 gp for hire and (free) for PC. Break-even point: one transmute rock to mud affects 18,000 cu ft of rock. Cost equations: one transmute rock to mud spell reduces excavation, stone to excavation, earth (stone braces/siding). Time effects: Time effects are included by reduced cost of construction.

Wall of stone: A useful construction spell, wall of stone provides the strength of hewn stone to structures. Walls of stone are treated as hewn stone and are equal in strength to reinforced stone. They are used to create strong defensible structures.

Cost: 450 gp. Break-even point: one wall of stone creates 90 sq ft of one-inch thick stone. Walls of stone are typically created back to back, merging to create thicker walls. Twelve walls of stone will create a foot thick, 15x15 wall, equal to reinforced stone. Cost equations: one wall of stone spells equals ½ sq ft of reinforced stone. Time effects: Time effects are included by reduced cost of construction.

Wondrous Items
Wondrous items are also used for construction purposes. Each wondrous item is treated below in a similar manner to spells. The cost associated with a wondrous item is the market price listed in the core rulebook II or the price for the items creation according to item creation rules.

Bag of Holding: Bags of holding speed carriage.

Cost: Varies, see core rule book II. Break-even point: When a bag of holding carries its worth in material plus its weight per trip, it has broken even. Cost equations: One bag of holding reduces carriage costs for one 100 sq. ft. area of construction by 2%, 4%, 8%, or 12% depending on the bag’s size. Divide carriage costs by total number of sq. ft. to determine gp carriage cost per sq ft. Multiply carriage cost per sq. ft. by 100 and then multiply by 2%, 4%, 8%, or 12% to determine gp saved. Time effects: Time effects are included by reduced cost of construction.

Boots, Winged: Winged boots allow their wearer to fly. This is useful for carriage and for working in locations that would normally require complicated scaffolding.

Cost: 12,000 gp or (PC) 6,000gp + 480XP. Break-even point: When winged boots allow their worth in construction or carriage, they have broke even. Cost equations: One pair of winged boots reduces total cost for one 100 sq. ft. area of construction by 2%. Divide final cost by total number of sq. ft. to determine gp cost per sq. ft. Multiply gp cost per sq. ft. by 100 and then multiply by 2% to determine gp saved. Time effects: Time effects are included by reduced cost of construction.

Broom of Flying: A broom of flying allows its rider to fly carrying 200 lbs. This is useful for carriage and for working in locations that would normally require complicated scaffolding.

Cost: 15,100 gp or (PC) 7,550gp + 604XP. Break-even point: When a broom of flying allows its worth in construction or carriage, it has broken even. Cost equations: One broom of flying reduces total cost for one 100 sq ft area of construction by 20%. Divide final cost by total number of sq ft to determine gp cost per sq ft. Multiply gp cost per sq ft by 100 and then multiply by 20% to determine gp saved. Time effects: Time effects are included by reduced cost of construction.

Carpet of Flying: A carpet of flying allows its rider to fly. This is useful for carriage and for working in locations that would normally require complicated scaffolding. Carpets of flying are the most useful of all flying wondrous items in construction.

Cost: Varies, see core rulebook II. Break-even point: When a carpet of flying allows its worth in construction or carriage, it has broken even. Cost equations: One carpet of flying reduces total cost for one 100 sq. ft. area of construction by 10%, 20%, 30%, or 40% based upon its size. Divide final cost by total number of sq. ft. to determine gp carriage cost per sq. ft. Multiply carriage cost per sq. ft. by 100 and then multiply by 10%, 20%, 30%, or 40% to determine gp saved. Time effects: Time effects are included by reduced cost of construction.

Handy Haversack: Handy haversacks speed carriage.

Cost: 2,000 gp or (PC) 1,000 gp +80XP. Break-even point: When a handy haversack carries its worth in material plus its weight per trip, it has broken even. Cost equations: One handy haversack reduces carriage costs for one 100 sq. ft. area of construction by 1%. Divide carriage costs by total number of sq. ft. to determine the amount saved. Time effects: Time effects are included by reduced cost of construction.

Lyre of Building: The most amazing of all constructional magic, a lyre of building almost negates the need for workers or material. A single hour of music from this instrument is equivalent to 100 humans laboring for six days, and every hour after the first only requires a Perform check (DC 18) or else the musician must stop. Unfortunately it can only be played once a week, but only the most proficient musicians (perform skill +13 or more) are ever allowed to use a lyre of building. Every magical medieval society keeps an almost religiously tight reign upon lyres of building. To make one requires permission of the wizards’ guild, the permission of the lord in whose land the lyre is being produced, and the permission of the king, regardless of location. If a lyre of building is found on a non-guild member, it is legally subject to confiscation. If confiscation is resisted, the offender is legally declared an outlaw by the king. These laws are harsh, but have been enacted to preserve the construction market and to ensure great lords and kings have full use of all lyres of building within their lands or kingdoms. A person must have good social standing (member of patriciate, gentry, or nobility) before they are allowed to contract out for a lyre of building, and they must gain approval from all concerned parties above. All citizens and subjects are responsible for reporting any mysteriously appearing buildings to the king or his legal representatives, and anyone found deliberately not reporting such occurrences are fined the equivalent of two year’s taxes.

Cost: 13,000 gp or (PC) 7,500 gp + 520XP. Break-even: A lyre of building usually breaks even in its first hour. Cost equations: Cost equations for a lyre of building are very difficult to determine. Unlike all other magic items, it is best for a GM to use a flat 10,000 gp per hour of play equivalent. This is a very rough estimate, but it is appropriate for large constructions and demonstrates the ability of the lyre to construct virtually anything within three or four hours. Time effects: Time effects are included by reduced cost of construction.

Marvelous Pigments: Marvelous pigments can create any 10 ft. x 10 ft. structure.

Cost: 5,500 gp or (PC) 2,250 gp +200XP. Break-even point: When a 10 ft. x 10 ft. structure is worth more than 5,500 gp, the pigments have broke even. Cost equations: One application of marvelous pigments substitutes for 10 sq ft of a structure. Divide the final price by the total square feet of a structure to get price per sq. ft. and the multiply by 10 to determine gp saved. Time effects: Time effects are included by reduced cost of construction.

Portable Hole: Portable holes are the best of the magic items that speed carriage. A portable hole can hold more than 15 times what the largest bag of holding can hold. It can also hold a hell of a lot of beer.

Cost: 14,000 gp or (PC) 7,000 gp +560XP. Break-even point: When a portable hole carries its worth in material plus its weight per trip, it has broken even. Cost equations: One portable hole reduces carriage costs for one 200 sq. ft. area of construction by 80%. Divide carriage costs by total number of sq. ft. to determine gp carriage cost per sq. ft. Multiply carriage cost per sq. ft. by 200, and then multiply by 80% to determine gp saved. Time effects: Time effects are included by reduced cost of construction.

Wings of Flying: Wings of flying allow its wearer to fly. This is useful for carriage and for working in locations that would normally require complicated scaffolding.

Cost: 5,500 gp or (PC) 2,250 + 220XP. Break-even point: When a carpet of flying allows its worth in construction or carriage, it has broken even. Cost equations: One carpet of flying reduces total cost for one 100 sq. ft. area of construction by 10%. Divide final cost by total number of sq. ft. to determine the amount saved. Time effects: Time effects are included by reduced cost of construction.

Monstrous Builders
Inevitably PCs avail themselves of monstrous builders. Whether through charm monster or simple bribery, monsters appear on worksites, and GMs adjudicate their special abilities.

Size effects: All building costs are based upon medium-sized builders. Increase carriage costs by a flat 1% for every 20% of the builders being every size category smaller. Reduce carriage costs by a flat 1% for every 20% of the builders being every size category larger. For example: a PC has a work crew of 100 creatures. 60% of them are medium-sized (0%modifier), 20% of them are small-sized (+1% modifier), and 20% of them are huge-sized (-2% modifier) for a total carriage cost change of -1%.

Burrowing: Any burrowing creature removes all costs associated with excavation. A creature must be able to burrow through stone to remove stone excavation costs. Time effects are included by reduced cost of construction.

Flying: One naturally flying creature reduces total cost for one 100 sq ft area of construction by 10%. Divide final cost by total number of sq. ft. to determine the amount saved. Time effects are included by reduced cost of construction.

joe b.
 

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dreaded_beast said:
this is regards to a thread "would you live in a d&d world".

suppose a d&d world were real, monsters, magic, clerics, etc. now, would such worlds mirror ours (and if so how) in terms of sexism and racism?

i remember one poster mention that one world, for example, Faerun, is devoid of sexism or racism (in regards to humans). This may be true based on the writings of WotC and probably a policy of WotC not to delve into such subjects in order to make their products more family friendly (i could be wrong about this, but i think i read this policy somewhere on their sight.) Anyways, assuming that statement is true, do you think that racism and sexism (in regards to humans) exists within Faerun and if so how? Would it mirror our own world's brand of both?

I'd assume sexism, racism, and other types of discrimination based upon a persons phyical traits would still exist. I think it is an unfortunate outcome of our evolution that we naturally favor those who look like us over those who don't. This of course could utterly change with the concept of an active, accessable, diety.

From MMS:WE introduction "On setting concepts"
Gender
The medieval period, though romantically remembered for
chivalry and knights, is not known for its gender equality.
However, medieval society is not as discriminatory as most
moderns believe. Women find places in medieval society as
guild members, powerful landowners, and abbesses. Some
societies assign gender to certain roles but allow women to
assume those roles though assuming a different gender.
Complex gender issues aside, third edition assumes ability is
not based upon sex or gender. This means a female fighter
swings and hits as hard as a male fighter.

The religious views of women that colored feminine perceptions
in the medieval times are another gender consideration. There
is no inherent Eve or Madonna in third edition. This does not
remove all historically sex-defined roles, but it does allow a
GM more equality in game play.

What kind of place in society would women have in third edition
parameters? Making women statistically equal to men
challenges every historical concept of women. Female rulers
would be more common, or even the norm in some kingdoms.
Women would bear arms and be a part of military endeavors.
A female society and fighting force could exist and kill anyone
that has problems with sword-carrying chicks. Religious
institutions would incorporate women in their hierarchy, and
female apprentices would be accepted as readily as male ones.
Because of third edition’s gender assumptions, GMs determine
societal roles rather than assuming historical gender roles.
That being said, if GMs prefer busty serving wenches and
damsels in distress (so that PCs can kill dragons and steal
their treasures), keep in step with the historical view towards
women in a magical medieval society.


But this topic is really off-subject and isn't something that should be discussed in this thread as it usually leads to flame wars etc.

As far as I know, the base assumption of DnD 3E is no sexism, no racism.

joe b.
 

jgbrowning said:
But this topic is really off-subject and isn't something that should be discussed in this thread as it usually leads to flame wars etc.

ah. point taken.

very good points. i like this book you are referencing from. where can i get myself a copy? sounds like a very interesting read.
 


dreaded_beast said:
very good points. i like this book you are referencing from. where can i get myself a copy? sounds like a very interesting read.

Being the modest man that I am, I'm quote myself.. :)

Its called A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe and you can buy the PDF at RPGnow.com for $10. Click through my sig.

Also, I'm glad to say, you can pre-order the hardcopy book from our website, again available through my sig. Its $25 for 144-pages perfectbound, shipping free in US, $3 for canada, and $7 international.

thanks for the interest

joe b.
 

I don't blame you for ruling my questions out of order. I'm just doing some really difficult and thankless work on early medieval Slavdom right now and looking for all the help I can find.

By the way, THANK YOU for your statements about the Monk! I could not agree more strongly with your position on the so-called monks.

In your discussion of disease, a thought crossed my mind: what if disease is just as, or nearly as prevalent in the Magical Medieval Society because of the prevalence of sorcerous behaviour. Perhaps, there are nearly as many evil clerics walking around casting Contagion as there are good clerics going around casting Cure Disease.
 

fusangite said:
I don't blame you for ruling my questions out of order. I'm just doing some really difficult and thankless work on early medieval Slavdom right now and looking for all the help I can find.

By the way, THANK YOU for your statements about the Monk! I could not agree more strongly with your position on the so-called monks.

In your discussion of disease, a thought crossed my mind: what if disease is just as, or nearly as prevalent in the Magical Medieval Society because of the prevalence of sorcerous behaviour. Perhaps, there are nearly as many evil clerics walking around casting Contagion as there are good clerics going around casting Cure Disease.


I thought about that, but i think the powers that be would be very very upset about someone doing that, so unless it was an organized group that could provide magical protection against divinations, i don't think it would be common enough to outweigh the good benefits of remove disease. However, in war it wouldn't be uncommon.

Druids casting diminish plants i would think would be more common than contagion, if one goes with the base assumption of the druidic order being apower source itself. I think that however, diminish plants would be used more as a threat than an action, and when used as an action it would be used by other power sources hiring druids.

There are so many possiblities that you can pretty much take whichever one you like and run with it as they're all pretty realistic.

joe b.
 

what type of worship system would be in place for the type of fantasy society that is being discussed? mono or poly?

if we assume that a worship of more than one deity is in place, assume also that the pantheon is composed of both good, neutral, and evil deities.

in a typical popultion center, what would the percentage breakdown be for worshipers of good, neutral, and evil deities?
 

dreaded_beast said:
what type of worship system would be in place for the type of fantasy society that is being discussed? mono or poly?

if we assume that a worship of more than one deity is in place, assume also that the pantheon is composed of both good, neutral, and evil deities.

in a typical popultion center, what would the percentage breakdown be for worshipers of good, neutral, and evil deities?

Usually we assume a polytheistic society where one god or a small group of gods has some sort of pre-eminance. The amount of that varies.

Worshipers of gods from the full spectrum of alignments don't have to be the same alignment as their god. Even clerics don't have to match their god's alignment to recieve her power.

I'd break down the alignment issues something like this.

Most common= Lawful neutral
Least common = Chaotic evil

**To the medieval mindset stability and order are the "good" while instability is the "bad." Stability is most easily obtained from LN as it has no pesky moral quandries**

Anything else in between would be very much campaign specific based upon how many social groups you have and what their goals are and how those goals mesh with the available god choices.

Religions that do more to help more people will have more followers, especially in cities. However, having more followers does't mean that's the prominant religion. There are many cases where a minority religion has control over the majority due to other considerations.

population % worshipping gods of the particular alignment *not the actual alignment breakdown of the populace* i'd put somthing like this
good=40%
neutral 50%
evil=10%

this is utterly my interpretation of mankind in general. your interpretation is just as good.


* you guy's are in trouble now... Suzi just brought me a fresh supply of soy-milk with vegetarian lasagna to boot. :)*

joe b.
 

We all know about evil spellcasters plannig on taking over the world. Now, what about small crimes.

How many spellcasters would turn invisible to look at a beautiful woman naked?:p

More seriously, would that be a problem in the society...spellcasters using their powers to commit that type of thing? Wouldn't it be very disruptive and everyone would be paranoid?
 

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