D&D 5E The core issue of the martial/caster gap is just the fundamental design of d20 fantasy casters.

[FrozenNorth]

It's another reason why, I, and many others, see the DMG organization/arrangement and cringe. But WoTC likely sees it as a feature that attracts people who would not otherwise buy it.

I agree with most of your post but strongly disagree with the last point. As a fan of natural language, the DMG is still cringe.

DMG cringiness has nothing to do with natural language. Oddly enough, people who appreciate natural language tend to dislike endless random tables. Very few of appreciate sticking an index to a different book in the middle of a chapter.

Maybe it was rushed, maybe it was too focussed on DMs of previous generations, who knows?

The DMG just isn’t an interesting read in a linear fashion. Its poor index and dreadful organization also means that it isn’t terribly useful as a reference either.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Another thought that I had, possibly in conjunction with yours, is that the wizard could get one spell of their choice but the player would then roll for thei other one, representing a breakthrough in their magical research. Magical research in downtime could net the wizard another spell but they need time, money, and possibly more for that.

In my games, wizards get one spell, and s must be a spell from their subclass.

If the wizard is supposed to be seeking out forgotten lore, it helps if they have an incentive to do so.

 

[Mort]

I agree with most of your post but strongly disagree with the last point. As a fan of natural language, the DMG is still cringe.

DMG cringiness has nothing to do with natural language. Oddly enough, people who appreciate natural language tend to dislike endless random tables. Very few of appreciate sticking an index to a different book in the middle of a chapter.

Maybe it was rushed, maybe it was too focussed on DMs of previous generations, who knows?

The DMG just isn’t an interesting read in a linear fashion. Its poor index and dreadful organization also means that it isn’t terribly useful as a reference either.

I certainly agree It's dreadful organization and a poor index.

But WoTC has shown precious little interest in changing it. Didn't they hire someone (a while back) to do new client outreach, which I think primarily had to do with reorganizing stuff like this. But that person quite in frustration after a short time (not being listened too etc.)?

 

[Mort]

In my games, wizards get one spell, and s must be a spell from their subclass.

If the wizard is supposed to be seeking out forgotten lore, it helps if they have an incentive to do so.

That does assume, the DM is willing to provide the "forgotten lore."

In the campaign I'm a player, the DM has, in 4 levels, given me exactly 1 opportunity to get a spell outside of leveling - and made me pay triple for it.

Of course, I've also realized that 2 per level (on top of 6 at first) is plenty for decent versatility. And this same DM gave me the Adept of the White Robes feat free at 4th, so I have little room to complain!

 

[Vaalingrade]

The idea of making wizards quest to get their spells usually just shifts them from being opportunity hogs to spotlight hogs as now the party has to divert from the plot so the wizard can wizard.

 

[Minigiant]

I certainly agree It's dreadful organization and a poor index.

But WoTC has shown precious little interest in changing it. Didn't they hire someone (a while back) to do new client outreach, which I think primarily had to do with reorganizing stuff like this. But that person quite in frustration after a short time (not being listened too etc.)?

WOTC wouldn't change it because the PHB, MM, and DMG were cash cows and they didn't want them to look flawed.

WOTC knew the DMG was awful, once they announced the 2024 versions, they could not shut up about the fact that the DMG was poorly organized, rushed, and not suitable for new DMs.

The designers knew the flaws. They sat on the fixes until the old version started to slow in sales and they could make more money of the new version. Literally "These were ideas we wanted to try for a long time".

 

[Staffan]

The idea of making wizards quest to get their spells usually just shifts them from being opportunity hogs to spotlight hogs as now the party has to divert from the plot so the wizard can wizard.

That's a good point. If you're going to give that kind of stuff to the wizard, you should probably serve some additional plot meat to other classes as well, like secret martial techniques and hidden empowering altars and stuff like that.

 

[M_Natas]

There's plenty of ways to address the gap without punishing the wizard players with cludge or literal punishment like cast from HP.

I think breaking up the wizard like Standard Oil and having either a lot of spellists for subclasses or a lot of caster classes wouldn't be so onerous as I feel a lot of wizard players actually yearn to have a more thematic class rather than the spell fruit salad with variable flavor of what dollop of cool whip goes on top offers.

My Idea in another thread to do that was proficiency and expertise for schools of magic.
A wizard can learn spells of all schools of Level 1 and 2, but to learn level 3 to 6 spells he needs proficiency in that school of magic and for levels 7 to 9 he needs expertise.
A base wizard can pick a proficiency at level , another at a higher level and he gets a proficiency and expertise from his subclass. A feat could grant extra profits expertise.
That would simulate more the academic wizard who needs to specialise in his field like today's scientists need to do.
Of course you could have on general wizard class, who gets more proficiencies but no expertise.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I certainly agree It's dreadful organization and a poor index.

But WoTC has shown precious little interest in changing it. Didn't they hire someone (a while back) to do new client outreach, which I think primarily had to do with reorganizing stuff like this. But that person quite in frustration after a short time (not being listened too etc.)?

They’re literally rewriting the whole book, and have talked at length about useful indexing, organization, etc. ie all the complaints being voiced.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Not a bad approach, but we'd need to rework the schools for that because not all schools are created equal in terms of number and quality of spells.