The Cost of Using Magic?

This quote, while about another subject, got me thinking about something that I don't think has ever been proposed (directly).

What if using magic and/or magic items (perhaps even only certain spells/items) to complete a challenge lowered the amount of experience you got? This would be slightly different that 3E's XP cost for spells/making items in that it affects the beneficiary (i.e., the wizard who makes a sword doesn't lose XP, the fighter who uses it does) and it doesn't take away existing XP, but instead lowers the XP gained from an encounter.

The reasoning would be using magic is a crutch, so you learn less from the experience. This would, conceivably, help to balance out the use of magic items vs. using your own abilities; characters with lots of powerful magic items would advance slower, but would probably be able to face more difficult challenges, whilst gear-strapped or magic-lite group/characters would advance quicker.

IF this were to be implemented, would you rather see that the item subtracts a flat rate or a %?

As a totally optional system...sure, modules are for everyone. I wouldn't want this for the core/basic system, and I wouldn't like it too much for play either. Anything that entangles two separate subsystems in the game makes it harder to modify either system individually. I'm not sure how using magic is a "crutch" for casters, either. I mean, isn't that what they do?

If the group wished to tone-down or penalize magic generally, I can easily imagine a system that forces some kind of "system shock" check for casting upper level spells. Failures incur significant lasting penalties on spellcasters. However, that's a pretty specific mechanic for magic and while I can think of several genre-sources that use a similar idea, I don't think it should be core/basic, either.
 

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What if magic is Plan C? The party goes through it the mundane ways first, experience hem, and failed. Magic was just the backup.


How about instead of penalizing powerful magic, how about we design a game that remembers powerful magic exists and has counters hardcoded in the system?

BBEGs, Dragons and Devils have permanent death ward and true sight; cast anti-scry on their lair every day; block flight, phasing, portals, and teleporrtation around their lairs; and obscure magical prediction.
 
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What if magic is Plan C? The party goes through it the mundane ways first, experience hem, and failed. Magic was just the backup.


How about instead of penalizing powerful magic, how about we design a game that remembers powerful magic exists and has counters hardcoded in the system?

BBEGs, Dragons and Devils have permanent death ward and true sight; cast anti-scry on their lair every day; block flight, phasing, portals, and teleporrtation around their lairs; and obscure magical prediction.

That's exactly what a lot of people (myself included) dislike about mid to high level 3e. It's a PITA to DM.

I think a better solution would be to simply make non-epic level magic less game breaking.

Besides, what the fun in having super-magic if the DM is simply going to negate your ability to use it? That's like giving a PC the ability to cast any spell he can think of, but then stating that the entire planet is inside an anti-magic field.

I think it's better to simply bring anything that would need such counters down to the level where they're perfectly reasonable to use on a regular basis. As an added bonus, epic level magic now has room to expand into the wahoo, without having to try to top Wish.
 

That's exactly what a lot of people (myself included) dislike about mid to high level 3e. It's a PITA to DM.

I think a better solution would be to simply make non-epic level magic less game breaking.

Besides, what the fun in having super-magic if the DM is simply going to negate your ability to use it? That's like giving a PC the ability to cast any spell he can think of, but then stating that the entire planet is inside an anti-magic field.

I think it's better to simply bring anything that would need such counters down to the level where they're perfectly reasonable to use on a regular basis. As an added bonus, epic level magic now has room to expand into the wahoo, without having to try to top Wish.

Counterspells and wards would only be for stronger opponents and challenges.

Minor death spells show up at level 7 with full casters. Enemy casters and many magical beasts over level 7 would have various degrees of immunity to minor death spells depending on the DM. The DM can cut them off and on as he wishes.

The conundrum of the caster is the possibilities and his limitation of spell slots. The same with his foes and the obstacles. If the wizard starts off with a death spell and the enemy has a death ward, one spell slot is wasted. He may only have 2 or 3 relevant spell slots left.

If the wizard is walking around with flight, cold, scry, and death and the enemy has anti-flight, death ward, fire ward, and protection from good; 50% of his spells do nothing and 50% win.

But Sword... Sword always works, baby.
 

Even leaving out the whole thing about how such a thing would affect peoples behavior in using magic, this would be a nightmare to track. And unlike in video games, everything you do with numbers has to be calculated by hand.

Yeah, I agree with this. I think such a system would be a nightmare to keep track of. Plus, I hate to be punished for using treasure or rewards from previous sessions.

Actually, if I wanted to encourage a use-your-own-ability instead of magic approach, then I would have to redesign magic and its use and its practicality in the world. For example, the benefits would esoteric and not mechanical. A magic longsword is no longer +1, but it just never needs sharpening.
 

Bonus XP for no one playing a wizard doesn't sound like fun. Whatever shape this system would take, it would have to be above and beyond normal powe--sigh/... class abilities and spells. I think this could work really well as a kind of central campaign plot. The party is under a curse that offers them power, but the more they take, the farther into its grasp they sink. The PCs would save it for a last resort, but when they're on their last legs, their mysterious pendant's features rearrange into a horrified face and the sky turns red... Players are going to do whatever they can to avoid advancing the BBEG's plot, so I think it ought to automatically trigger at some threshhold, like if the entire party is bloodied or half of them are unconscious. There'd have to be some kind of track that the PCs move along; when they use the pendant's power X number of times, there's a showdown with the big bad. Maybe a psychic confrontation in each party member's mind to try and throw off his control?

...Don't mind me, I'm just going to follow this tangent over here...
 

I'm sorry, but I really don't like this idea. I have these problems with it:
1)it adds book keeping, making the DM job harder
2)it brings back a form of "different xp required for advancing for each class", something that I was glad to have seen removed from the game
3)it discourages wizards from casting their spells
and, the main one for me
4)it doesn't make sense to me. Let me explain why:

I am a wizard and if I do not use my spells I improve my magical skills faster than someone that is constantly using them (and, in the process, exercising and training his magical skills).
 

Counterspells and wards would only be for stronger opponents and challenges.

Minor death spells show up at level 7 with full casters. Enemy casters and many magical beasts over level 7 would have various degrees of immunity to minor death spells depending on the DM. The DM can cut them off and on as he wishes.

The conundrum of the caster is the possibilities and his limitation of spell slots. The same with his foes and the obstacles. If the wizard starts off with a death spell and the enemy has a death ward, one spell slot is wasted. He may only have 2 or 3 relevant spell slots left.

If the wizard is walking around with flight, cold, scry, and death and the enemy has anti-flight, death ward, fire ward, and protection from good; 50% of his spells do nothing and 50% win.

But Sword... Sword always works, baby.

Okay, that's like giving the character the ability to cast any spell he can conceive, and then placing the world inside an anti-magic field that appears by pure DM fiat. Guess what the DM is thinking to determine whether your game breaking spell will circumvent the adventure this game, or be a complete waste? IMO, that's awful design.

If you give players a tool, expect them to use it. If you give them a tool, let them use it. When I'm a player, I want to be able to use the tools at my disposal. I shouldn't have to ignore 25% of my spellbook because we're going up against the BBEG and "obviously the DM won't let us use our best stuff against the BBEG".

I also don't like it as a DM because then I have to come up with contrivances if I don't want the adventure circumvented by magic. Sure, it's easy if the villain is a wizard. But what about an insane, magic-hating, loner, high-level fighter who can no longer threaten the world by seeking the heart of the world in order to stab it, because in order to have any chance of success he has to either partner up with a mage who can protect him from scry/buff/teleport or he needs to be dripping in magical bling to do the same.

I know it's a crazy idea, but I think they should save the wahoo "magic must defeat magic" for epic levels, if at all. It's not that powerful magic can't exist. Perhaps pre-epic divination spells offer unclear or incomplete information. Perhaps a non-epic teleportation spell is never more precise than within one mile of the target location (but runs no risk of becoming embedded in a wall). Perhaps non-epic death spells have a hp limit akin to Power Word: Kill, meaning that they're great for finishing off the BBEG, but you have to soften him up with damaging effects first.

Not everyone likes to play the spell-counterspell-counter-counterspell-counter-counter-counterspell-counter-counter-counter-counterspell... game. It reduces the majesty of magic to simply that of powerful technology. "Sorry captain, we can't scan the romulan compound or beam in because they're jamming us with their shields. Better luck next time." I prefer my D&D filled with magic. A mysterious and somewhat unpredictable force. Not a game breaking one.
 

Okay, that's like giving the character the ability to cast any spell he can conceive, and then placing the world inside an anti-magic field that appears by pure DM fiat. Guess what the DM is thinking to determine whether your game breaking spell will circumvent the adventure this game, or be a complete waste? IMO, that's awful design.
But It is slightly already this way. Death spells only work on the living. Drop a vampire enemy and all the poison, stunning, death, disease, paralysis, and sleep spells don't work. Drop a troll, they are forced to use acid and fire.
If you give players a tool, expect them to use it. If you give them a tool, let them use it. When I'm a player, I want to be able to use the tools at my disposal. I shouldn't have to ignore 25% of my spellbook because we're going up against the BBEG and "obviously the DM won't let us use our best stuff against the BBEG".


I also don't like it as a DM because then I have to come up with contrivances if I don't want the adventure circumvented by magic. Sure, it's easy if the villain is a wizard. But what about an insane, magic-hating, loner, high-level fighter who can no longer threaten the world by seeking the heart of the world in order to stab it, because in order to have any chance of success he has to either partner up with a mage who can protect him from scry/buff/teleport or he needs to be dripping in magical bling to do the same.
Most BBEGs, pencil and paper or video game, use the "I'm bigger and badder so that doesn't work." trick. I don't see the problem with harder than normal challenges countering certain tactics and strategies.
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I know it's a crazy idea, but I think they should save the wahoo "magic must defeat magic" for epic levels, if at all. It's not that powerful magic can't exist. Perhaps pre-epic divination spells offer unclear or incomplete information. Perhaps a non-epic teleportation spell is never more precise than within one mile of the target location (but runs no risk of becoming embedded in a wall). Perhaps non-epic death spells have a hp limit akin to Power Word: Kill, meaning that they're great for finishing off the BBEG, but you have to soften him up with damaging effects first.

Not everyone likes to play the spell-counterspell-counter-counterspell-counter-counter-counterspell-counter-counter-counter-counterspell... game. It reduces the majesty of magic to simply that of powerful technology. "Sorry captain, we can't scan the romulan compound or beam in because they're jamming us with their shields. Better luck next time." I prefer my D&D filled with magic. A mysterious and somewhat unpredictable force. Not a game breaking one.[/QUOTE]

The problem is D&D's magic is powerful. The weakness of magic is its strictness. Magic did specific things, could only be used some many times a day, had to be performed perfectly, had just as available counters, and there were availability issues to start with.

It wasn't the easy way. The experience was just as great.... when it worked.
 

But It is slightly already this way. Death spells only work on the living. Drop a vampire enemy and all the poison, stunning, death, disease, paralysis, and sleep spells don't work. Drop a troll, they are forced to use acid and fire.

What you're describing falls under the topic of research and kill, which is a different D&D trope. If you're familiar with the creature, or the PCs do their homework, you know not to use those methods when confronting the creature. It's the same as researching the dragon you're hunting, so you don't bring a dozen fireballs to fight an ancient red.

Those elements are there to add versimilitude first and foremost. They're not typically there to balance an encounter against broken magic. Trolls can be put down using a torch or vial of acid, more easily than with a spell. Is there honestly any balance to be found in needing to use lightning bolt instead of fireball against a red dragon? I would say no.

You don't need to add versimilitude to spells in the same way. Is it honestly any more realistic to have teleportation magic with less than a mile of deviation limited to epic level? No, even teleportation magic that always deviates by at least 10 miles, or a magic system where teleportation is impossible, is still internally consistent.

Most BBEGs, pencil and paper or video game, use the "I'm bigger and badder so that doesn't work." trick. I don't see the problem with harder than normal challenges countering certain tactics and strategies.

Some games do, others don't. The later 4e solos often have reactions to powerful attacks like stun, or means to mitigate the impact such as having multiple turns in a round; I can't think of any that are simply immune. I've always found it lame when a BBEG says "Haha, that doesn't work on me just because I'm the BBEG". That's an indication of weak design, to me.

A red dragon is immune to fire because he's a fire dragon. The BBEG is death warded essentially because the DM is metagaming. There's a difference.

A lot of DMs will justify it as the BBEG being smart. Firstly, not every BBEG should be a mega genius with access to limitless magical resources. Secondly, it's the equivalent of the pope spending all of his time in the popemobile, even when he's inside the Vatican. Sure, it might make sense that he's in the popemobile when he's traveling, but it'd be a bit laughable if you walked in on him meeting with the Cardinals and he's standing there in the popemobile. But that's essentially how BBEGs behave because otherwise PCs will use game breaking magic to wipe them from existence without breaking a sweat.

You can have a fun game without giving the players nuclear options. In fact, I think nuclear options lessen the fun. Most players will use tactical nukes if you give them tactical nukes, but is it really all that satisfying to win by means of an auto-win button? My group eschewed save-or-die in 3e because, the first time we used it, it ruined a battle that we were looking forward to. We never used it again.

Besides, it causes the game to devolve into spell-counter-counter... Instead of walking into the BBEG's throne room, casting Death Spell, and laughing about how pathetic the BBEG was, the cleric casts Dispel Magic first (to remove Death Ward) and then the wizard casts Death Spell (cue laughter). So now the next BBEG needs a spell or magic item to make his Death Ward more difficult to dispel. So the PCs go and find a spell that allows them to penetrate that, resulting in a spiral into absurdity of counters and counter-counters.

The problem is D&D's magic is powerful. The weakness of magic is its strictness. Magic did specific things, could only be used some many times a day, had to be performed perfectly, had just as available counters, and there were availability issues to start with.

It wasn't the easy way. The experience was just as great.... when it worked.

The problem (largely) isn't that D&D's magic is powerful. It's that the limits are in the wrong places.

A teleport spell that allows you to instantly teleport between continents is undeniably powerful, but if it never can do better than a mile of precision, it suddenly becomes useless for scry-buff-teleport. It can still save you months of potentially dangerous travels if you're journeying to distant lands.

A death spell with an hp limit is quite powerful. You can look at any low level creature and it will die. However, if the hp limit is 50 while the BBEG has 200 hp, the PCs will have to engage him in combat before finishing him off with Death spell. Heck, you can even have the Death spell deal a small amount of damage if the BBEG is above the hp limit, as it causes his heart to skip a beat but he powers through. Essentially, the Death spell transforms from an anti-climactic opener, to a satisfying finisher.

Scry could be tweaked to be able to look into the past and the near future, always seeking out a pertinent moment, however the visions might also be disjointed and hard to understand. That's powerful, as you'll never scry the BBEG doing absolutely nothing of interest. You might get a hint of his plans, or some insight into his personal motivations. However, it's absolutely useless for scry-and-die tactics because what you're seeing may have already taken place (or may be yet to come).

As you can see, all of the above are still quite powerful. However, they've been limited with regard to how significantly they can break the game. In all of the cases, the BBEG no longer has to take measures to ensure that the PCs can't use these abilities. This makes BBEGs who do take such measures special. If the PCs find that the BBEG has found a means to prevent others from Scrying him, they may wonder what it is that he's afraid they'll learn. Could it be something from his past? Or perhaps it is something he's destined to accomplish? This may motivate the PCs to research the BBEG using non-magical means.

This is just what I came up with now, off the top of my head. Professional designers with a year or two to work on the issue could almost certainly do much better than this (IMO).
 
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