D&D 5E The D&D Multiverse Part 2- The Remix Culture of the Gygaxian Multiverse

[Neonchameleon]

Interesting discussion.

How many people still use alternate material worlds for adventures? Do the rest of you guys ever dangle plot threads that lead to different planets or planes-that-are-other-worlds-but-mostly-earthlike?

I'm not sure how much the Feywild and Shadowfell count as different planes but mostly earthlike? Used both for that sort of thing.

 

[Umbran]

Trek had practical reasons for doing that.

Sure. But why they did it doesn't alter the fact that it was done, and a solid part of genre before Gygax started writing D&D.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

It was part of the original concept of Doctor Who (1963-), which is why it was based around a machine that could go anywhere in time and space.

 

[Orius]

Sure. But why they did it doesn't alter the fact that it was done, and a solid part of genre before Gygax started writing D&D.

The important point is that it's not just a creative reason though. Film and TV are restrained by budget concerns that books don't need observe. Gaming is similarly unrestricted by those restrictions as well. Of course film and TV do have an influence on gaming but it's not the only one.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The important point is that it's not just a creative reason though.

The "why" doesn't really matter much. All these shows where influenced by, but more importantly, influenced, the zeitgeist. Even though D&D wasn't limited in what it could do by TV budgets it still had to speak the language of the culture which had been defined by those TV shows.

So you can, for example, trace the Cold War Nuclear fears influence in Gamma World and Dark Sun 70s/80s, the Star Wars influence in Dragonlance and Baldur's Gate 80s/90s, LotR movie influence in the early 2000s, and so on.

 

[J-H]

I seem to splash a bit of "other" into all of my campaigns so far:
-Castle Dracula has a "shoggoth in a box" in a side room in the treasury. Not quite on theme for anything else.
-Against the Idol of the Sun (current campaign) is a high-level hexcrawl. There's a crashed (Mind Flayer) UFO in one section of the map, complete with functioning turrets, a laser pistol and some dead warforged, plus a vacuum stick craft (engine with a pole and handholds to use for short-distance transits in space) used to board it. The engine area is highly radioactive, so I'm reasonably sure they'll only salvaged the engine from the warforged boarding craft and not the whole flying saucer.
-My other campaign, a more episodic dungeon crawl, includes crashed flying cities. I'll have some pseudo-high-tech stuff somewhere in there probably, and maybe a crashed spelljammer.

It's important to have some variety in encounter-building, theme, tone, etc. Introducing a "this is from elsewhere" element is one way to do it.

 

[Willie the Duck]

I think one reason D&D stepped back from the gonzo is that it's hell on game balance. And post-Gary TSR had a thing for "realism" in world building which often resulted in some fairly dry and dull settings.

I would not call Dark Sun, Ravenloft, or even fantasy kitchen sinks like FR and Known World/Mystara dry and dull. At worst they were a step back in the gonzo because they instituted a mindset of 'you choose which one single gonzo environ and rarely if at all deviate from that (unless you do, in which case grab Planescape or Spelljammer, with the specific cultures and assumptions baked into each of them).'

Regardless, I think another reason might be some bitter lessons in terms of worldbuilding, scope, and importance. By that, I mean if you and your characters spend 9-10 levels clearing out dungeons and developing a plot of wilderness in Eastern Madeupland, build a keep, recruit some peasantry and knights, and carve out a little fiefdom, well then a bunch of alternate realities indicating that not only is your little neck of the woods not important, but that your whole gameworld is just one of an infinite number of planets of hats is going to make those first 10 levels feel very unimportant. Same for the DM with their intricate worldbuilding and developments of cultures, religions, maps, and so forth. I don't know how universal this is, but with my groups, after a trips up and down the level ladder, we tended to either make campaigns where the gameworld was isolated in the multiverse (or only attached to the inner and outer planes, but not any other Prime Material Planes or other alt-realities where 'normal character races' often dwelled) or made universe-hopping a prime aspect of the campaign theme.

 

[Orius]

I was specifically referring to the real world analogs that TSR did with FR and Mystara, as well as the HR books. That's probably one of the reasons why settings like Dark Sun, Ravenloft, and Planescape had more popularity than the real world derived stuff.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

The "why" doesn't really matter much. All these shows where influenced by, but more importantly, influenced, the zeitgeist. Even though D&D wasn't limited in what it could do by TV budgets it still had to speak the language of the culture which had been defined by those TV shows.

So you can, for example, trace the Cold War Nuclear fears influence in Gamma World and Dark Sun 70s/80s, the Star Wars influence in Dragonlance and Baldur's Gate 80s/90s, LotR movie influence in the early 2000s, and so on.

This is an interesting point (cue up the whole, "Monster movies reflect the cultural fears of the people at the time, and here's my examination of zombie movies ...").

I wonder about the specific ways in which D&D has changed over time, not just staying the same (in terms of D&Disms) but also reflecting the zeitgeist of the era; one thing I think is true is that there is certainly a lot more anime and cosplay within the groups that play D&D now than in time prior, and I'm curious what effect people think that has had on 5e.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

This is an interesting point (cue up the whole, "Monster movies reflect the cultural fears of the people at the time, and here's my examination of zombie movies ...").

I wonder about the specific ways in which D&D has changed over time, not just staying the same (in terms of D&Disms) but also reflecting the zeitgeist of the era; one thing I think is true is that there is certainly a lot more anime and cosplay within the groups that play D&D now than in time prior, and I'm curious what effect people think that has had on 5e.

Anime is a big thing with my current players (who are nearly all younger than me), and was somewhat alien to me - I had to clue myself in so as to be DMing on the same page as them.

 

[TwoSix]

So if we accept that the "multiversal weirdness" of early D&D was part and parcel of the fantasy/sci-fi cutural zeitgeist of the '60s and '70s (which I totally accept), was the development of fantasy settings as contained, discrete entities (exemplified by the 2E era setting boom) also caused by a change in the fantasy/sci-fi zeitgeist in the '80s and '90s? If so, what would have been the primary drivers?

 

[Aldarc]

This is an interesting point (cue up the whole, "Monster movies reflect the cultural fears of the people at the time, and here's my examination of zombie movies ...").

I wonder about the specific ways in which D&D has changed over time, not just staying the same (in terms of D&Disms) but also reflecting the zeitgeist of the era; one thing I think is true is that there is certainly a lot more anime and cosplay within the groups that play D&D now than in time prior, and I'm curious what effect people think that has had on 5e.

In connection with this, I've been wondering how the change from D&D (and TTRPGs) as a Midwest thing to a fairly significant Pacific Northwest thing (e.g., WotC, Paizo, Green Ronin, Monte Cook Games, etc.) has also affected D&D and the wider TTRPG hobby.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

In connection with this, I've been wondering how the change from D&D (and TTRPGs) as a Midwest thing to a fairly significant Pacific Northwest thing (e.g., WotC, Paizo, Green Ronin, Monte Cook Games, etc.) has also affected D&D and the wider TTRPG hobby.

Interesting! Without having a particular factual basis to go on, my immediate reaction is twofold-

1. On one hand, I think it would have to have some impact. People write about what they know, and the change of focus from the Midwest to the Pacific Northwest had to have an impact.

2. On the other hand, I also think that regionalism isn't nearly as important as it used to be in the United States. It's still there- but for various reasons, while regionalism persists, it isn't as much of a factor as it was in the 70s.

That's a verbose way of saying, "I don't know."

 

[Aldarc]

Interesting! Without having a particular factual basis to go on, my immediate reaction is twofold-

1. On one hand, I think it would have to have some impact. People write about what they know, and the change of focus from the Midwest to the Pacific Northwest had to have an impact.

2. On the other hand, I also think that regionalism isn't nearly as important as it used to be in the United States. It's still there- but for various reasons, while regionalism persists, it isn't as much of a factor as it was in the 70s.

That's a verbose way of saying, "I don't know."

This is also where my thoughts are stuck. It's bound to have some impact culturally, but hypothesizing on those impacts also risks making insubstantial essentialist characterizations about cultural regions of the United States.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

So if we accept that the "multiversal weirdness" of early D&D was part and parcel of the fantasy/sci-fi cutural zeitgeist of the '60s and '70s (which I totally accept), was the development of fantasy settings as contained, discrete entities (exemplified by the 2E era setting boom) also caused by a change in the fantasy/sci-fi zeitgeist in the '80s and '90s? If so, what would have been the primary drivers?

It's not so much "discrete entities" coming in, as "multiversal weirdness" falling out of fashion.

I already alluded to Star Wars being a big driving force behind Dragonlance, and later on how FR developed. The other big thing that was starting to have an influence 80s/90s where computer games.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

In connection with this, I've been wondering how the change from D&D (and TTRPGs) as a Midwest thing to a fairly significant Pacific Northwest thing (e.g., WotC, Paizo, Green Ronin, Monte Cook Games, etc.) has also affected D&D and the wider TTRPG hobby.

If you want to talk about "regionalism", you should probably consider the cynicism and black humour coming in from the UK in the 70s/80s, exemplified by Warhammer, and Kaos Spikybitz.

 

[Maxperson]

I guess Hasbro wants to create a "metaverse" with all their franchises/IPs within it, including the D&D multiverse but here there is a serious challenge for the game designers.

Facebook beat them to it!

 

[FrogReaver]

I guess Hasbro wants to create a "metaverse" with all their franchises/IPs within it, including the D&D multiverse but here there is a serious challenge for the game designers.

I think in terms of pushing product lines into a metaverse it's good immediate marketing but may cause problems down the road. What if feelings and thoughts change and things in one popular product line start being viewed negatively. Having that product line tied to the others in a metaverse fashion may also drag those other products down to some degree. I'd say it's inevitable that this will happen at some point, especially with crossover content being prevalent.

 

[dragoner]

I've gotten to the point in life when I tell people that the upcoming campaign will have a lot of Burroughs in it.

They go in thinking, "Cool! John Carter!"

....but what I don't say is it isn't Edgar Rice .... It's William S.

Full of regret?

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

D&D was designed for total creative freedom, but those potential crossovers may need special touch to avoid a feeling of "jumping the shark" effect. One of the options may be a mash-up version of the other franchise, and my suggestion is the fake-crossover, where one characters go to a fictional copy of the other world, something like that episode of Star Trek where Picard became Robin Hood by fault of a Q's "joke". The new Ravenloft allows dread domains with technology from digital age. This allows possible crossovers with horror franchises set in the modern day, for example "Army of Darkness". For the time being, we will not see characters with high-tech in D&D, because the firearms can break the power balance if DMs haven't enough experience in the tabletop.

In the past I suggested kidding cybertronians/transformers in Kaladesh, but now I say they are possible in the cyberpunk Kamiwaga.

Sometimes I though about a new Star Wars d20, but now my opinion is Disney will publish its own RPG with a version of the D616 system. Hasbro doesn't want to create its own space-opera franchise yet because good relations with Disney are too important and this doesn't want a new rival for Star Wars. If Hasbro lincences its franchises to Renegade Games Studio for TTRPG I doubt seriously about to publish adaptations of other videogames (Fortnite, Starcraft, Diablo, Warcraft, Overwatch).