The Deadliest Archer of Them All

[CRGreathouse]

I had entirely too much fun doing that post.

I apologize Kai Lord if I took unfair advantage of you. I just take absolute statements of "couldn't do it on his best day" as a personal challenge.

I think I can better it (though I'm not sure) with the CRGreathouse patent-pending Metasmack.

It works like this: I tell Jeremy that I bet he can't make a 20th level peerless archer do better than the above smack...

 

[Kai Lord]

I had entirely too much fun doing that post.

I apologize Kai Lord if I took unfair advantage of you. I just take absolute statements of "couldn't do it on his best day" as a personal challenge.

No apology needed. The Peerless Archer in my example was using a non-magical bow, and he only did 4 points of damage less! Give him the funky acid-bursting Oathbow wielded by the cleric in your example and once again, he puts the cleric to shame.

Of couse a 20th level cleric is going to wreak havoc on the best day of his life. When you factor in spells and certain domains, he can obviously unleash destruction that would humble many an archer. But when it comes to just that bow and arrow, his best day just won't be good enough.

 

[Crothian]

I'd like to see the smackdown without benifit of magical items. I think that would make it a lot more fair.

Also, they should be of the same race, we are just comparing the classes, nothing else should matter.

 

[Immort]

I believe Jeremy already answered the questions about persistent spells and the true damage bonus of divine favor being +6 not +5. Also the reason the I was calculating a fighters bab (because of the persistent divine power). I was calculating a cleric 19/templar 1 because of a mention from an earlier post.

So because both the PA and the cleric started with the same bab at the beginning, (20,15,10,5) and basing the example on both characters having equal stats, and equal permanent equipment (+5 bow and bracers of archery), and frankly throwing in free +3 arrows for the PA even though he would have to spend resources to get them that the cleric wouldn't, the long and the short of it is that the primary dividing point came down to a persistent divine favor vs. power attack. (and Kai Lord was dead set on mentioning the fact that he could do 20 extra points of damage which is why I calculated at that rate)(yes a more intelligent tactitian would only use about 10 points or so, but Kai Lord only seems to care about making shots that bend all the laws of probability)

If the PA didn't power attack, the cleric would be +6 more to hit and damge than him, because of the divine favor. If he did power attack, the attrtition to his BAB would invariably cost him damage because no matter what the bonus to damage is on an attack, it is utterly meaningless if it doesn't connect. When yer 20th level, ya can't be expectin' ta go up against critters with 15 ACs. It just ain't gunna happen.

I can truly appreciate someone being emotionally attached to a character class, nothing wrong with that. I can also appreaciate dreaming of desparate shots that save the day, fer cryin' out loud it is a fantasy game. All I am sayin', is that from a mathmatical stand point, a properly buffed cleric will have a noticable advantage over any other class. If you wanted to start two characters with identical stats buck naked with no prepared spells, and no magic items, in the middle of a field with exactly matching bows and a quiver of nonmagical arrows, of course the PA will be shooting better . . . for a short time.

I don't base my assessment of a characters worth on situations that NEVER HAPPEN IN GAMEPLAY. Sure knowing you can do 144 points of damage with a single arrow is great. It will never happen in your lifetime, but it is great knowing that it technically could. I am much happier knowing I can deliver a constant and reliable 137.75 to an AC 30 creature (Enkhidu didn't realize where all my numbers were coming from but they were still valid). Even using Enkhidu's more intelligent use of power attack the PA still comes in at a poor man's 105.5.

Now, if a good PRC archer has a good spell caster to buff him up correctly, he will easily be the equal or even superior of a cleric archer. My point was, as a stand alone class, the cleric is a more able arrow slinger. This ain't spittin' on any other class, the truth is 3E is HEAVILY weighted towards spell casting classes. Period. Just the way it was designed.

Anyhow, this is where I check outta this thread.

-Immort

 

[Jeremy]

No apology needed. The Peerless Archer in my example was using a non-magical bow, and he only did 4 points of damage less! Give him the funky acid-bursting Oathbow wielded by the cleric in your example and once again, he puts the cleric to shame.

Of couse a 20th level cleric is going to wreak havoc on the best day of his life. When you factor in spells and certain domains, he can obviously unleash destruction that would humble many an archer. But when it comes to just that bow and arrow, his best day just won't be good enough.

That's true. But also in your example, your archer didn't fire any more than one shot. So he didn't pay the price of his -20 to hit power attack. And he also shot at point blank range, where any number of complications can arise. And he also sneak attacked a dragon at 30' range with when you consider blindsight and the fact that the dragons attacked him, should have been impossible.

So there are a number of flaws in your example. I recommend you stat him up and display him for comparison.

But you're right, my example wasn't to show that clerics are better archers, characters, or oyster chefs. It was just to show that on their very best day, they too can kill dragons in an arrow per dragon if as you said "set up the absolute best conditions you can imagine for the cleric". Of course, having an attack bonus of +54 without magical items, 6 attacks, and full spell casting ability are all benefits that the cleric has without magical items. I just through them in to fill the "absolute best conditions" clause and to illustrate more realistically what characters are like at the 20th level of play.

As to you CRG and your plan to bet me that I can't design an even better PA smack, you've got two problems. One, I don't have Silver Marches yet (got laid off ), and two, reverse psychology doesn't work if you tell the victim what you are doing. That is unless they are obsessive compulsive. And I'm just compulsive, not obsessive.

 

[Jeremy]

To reiterate something I said way earlier in the thread on the value of archery prestige classes, ranged sneak attack is a serious hindrance to an archer.

It requires that the archer always be within 30' of his foe, and that he find some unlikely way to sneak attack. One problem is you can't flank at range. Another is that by the time you have ranged sneak attack from 5 or so levels in a prestige class, you are level 12-15. At level 12-15, improved invisibility (IF you can get cast upon you) is easily seen through as are many other tactics. And a final is, even a heavily armored dwarf can reach you with a charge or worse at 30' range. You do NOT want a dragon with snatch (improved grab built in) attacking you claw/claw/wing/wing/bite/tail slap with each one allowing free grapple attacks at base attack + size bonus + strength. Nor frost giants clubbing away at you, snapping your bow like a twig, or just picking you up and tearing you apart.

An archer's primary advantage is the ability to fight at range like a spellcaster. If you want to mix it up, be a melee class and take your 1.5x strength damage from two handed weapons. That way you don't have to split your stats up between strength, dexterity, and constitution. You can just pump strength and get extra damage, attack bonus, and utility.

Of course, I love 30 strength characters. But I am playing an archer currently.

An Oathbow toting wood elf psychic warrior who is gonna start taking deepwood sniper levels. So I've seen the other side too. Rawr!

 

[Kai Lord]

Anyhow, this is where I check outta this thread.

That's understandable, considering all of your points have already been countered. Let's say the Peerless Archer rolls only moderately well on a Powered up Sneak Attack and only does 125 points of damage with a non-magical bow. Your cleric gonna touch that? Didn't think so.

Yeah, Sneak Attacks NEVER occur in gameplay. Let's say they PA shoots at a construct, negating his Sneak Attack and Critical, and only does 36 points of damage with a non-magical bow. Still more than the cleric is capable of, with a GMW+5 bow and arrow.

The Peerless Archer can do more in a single round, more with a single arrow, and for the plethora of monsters where he can sacrifice +7 from his BAB to throw into a Power Attack without effectively reducing his chance to hit, just more on average.

With a -7 to attack, a Fighter 10/Peerless Archer 10 hits AC 30 on a natural 2 with a +5 bow and +5 arrows. That's +1 damage over the Cleric's +6 Divine Favor by using a +7 Power Shot, plus anything extra he gets from Sneak Attacks. Adult Red Dragons are AC 29. Both the cleric and the PA miss on a natural 1, and the PA just does more damage.

So even on average, your cleric just isn't as good. Sorry.

 

[Jeremy]

Adult Red Dragons are AC 29.

How are you sneak attacking the dragon again?

 

[Jeremy]

Totally aside from the cleric vs. pa contest right now, here's some fun stuff...

Netbook of Feats #008
(April 2002)

www.netbookoffeats.org

CALLED SHOT [General]
COPYRIGHT 2001, Carl Cramér
You do more damage with pinpoint attacks.
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13+.
Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for the round, you may choose to subtract a number from all attack rolls for the round and add the same number to all weapon damage rolls for dexterity-based attacks. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next action.
Special: Creatures lacking an anatomy and thus immune to critical hits, are immune to this extra damage. Called shot can be used with ranged weapons at ranges up to 30 feet.
Notes: Dexterity-based attacks are attacks that use the dexterity modifier rather than the strength modifier for attack rolls; missile weapons, thrown weapons and weapons used with the Weapon Finesse feat. Called shot cannot be used with ranged touch attacks.
Balance: 3.80 (Purp 3.50, Pow 4.00, Port 4.00, Comp
3.75, Rule 3.75)

This is a fun feat for archers and other dexterity fighters that deserves more exposure.

 

[Kai Lord]

That's true. But also in your example, your archer didn't fire any more than one shot. So he didn't pay the price of his -20 to hit power attack. And he also shot at point blank range, where any number of complications can arise. And he also sneak attacked a dragon at 30' range with when you consider blindsight and the fact that the dragons attacked him, should have been impossible.

So there are a number of flaws in your example.

Okay, I'll allow for myself to be wrong, but why shouldn't the PA be able to Sneak Attack a dragon within 30' if he wins initiative? I know flat-footed implies standing on the ground, but I just take that as "battle readiness" which you don't have if someone gets the drop on you.

But let's say I'm wrong, and he can't Sneak Attack in that situation, he still does 124 points of damage with a non-magical bow, 139 with a vanilla +5 bow. Way out of Cleric range.

And if I was concerned about follow-up attacks in the same round being crippled due to the massive power shot, I would have just knocked a few more arrows in the bow and pummeled the dragon with a nice little feat called Manyshot. One attack, hella damage.