The Deadliest Swordsman
- Thread starter Kai Lord
- Start date
Could we define the parameters of this experiment a little more clearly. Should we be using 'all attacks hit and crit doing average damage' or 'all attacks hit and crit for maximum damage'?
I didn't use anything other than the PHB, DMG, and the Sword and Fist book.
Stats are 28, 22, 20, 14, 20, 20.
The Fighter 10 / Weapon Master 4 / Master Samurai 4 / Paladin 2 that I'm running now doesn't qualify, so, I'll make a few changes and *poof*, now he's a Fighter 10 / Master Samurai 5 / Paladin 5.
I do 1d10 + 25 points of damage per attack to start with (this includes strength with blades of death (+9x2), sword (+5), and Wpn Spec. (+2). This is for every 2H attack that I make with my Bastard Sword. Add Blades of Fury, Ki Strength, and Smite Evil into the mix and the damage climbs to 1d10 + 33. Cast Divine Favor and it jumps to 1d10 + 35. If the creature I'm attacking is evil I add another +2d6 because of my +5 Holy Ghost Touch Bastard Sword.
With all of the above figured in the first 5 attacks (hasted, of course) look like this 45/39/34/29/24. For the next five rounds it looks like this 39/39/34/29/24. After that it is 36/36/31/26/21.
Assuming all five attacks against my evil foe are successful critical hits (and we are for this example), the damage ends up looking like this.
10d10 + 310 + 10d6 or an average of about 400 points.
10d10 + 310 + 10d6 for a maximum of 470 points.
Against evil creatures that are incorporeal, invisible, displaced, mirror imaged, immune to critical hits, can't be caught flat-footed, can't be flanked, etc I will still deal out 5d10 + 155 + 10d6, or an average of 215 points of damage during the first round, and an average of 185 after that.
Equipment:
+3 Mithral Chain Shirt of Speed (constantly hasted)
+5 Holy Ghost Touched Bastard Sword (Intelligent, True Seeing, No Breathing, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge (5th Barb)
+6 Belt of Strength
+6 Gloves of Dexterity
+6 Amulet of Health
+6 Robes of Charisma
+6 Crown of Wisdom
+4 Manual of Gainful Exercise
I didn't use anything other than the PHB, DMG, and the Sword and Fist book.
Stats are 28, 22, 20, 14, 20, 20.
The Fighter 10 / Weapon Master 4 / Master Samurai 4 / Paladin 2 that I'm running now doesn't qualify, so, I'll make a few changes and *poof*, now he's a Fighter 10 / Master Samurai 5 / Paladin 5.
I do 1d10 + 25 points of damage per attack to start with (this includes strength with blades of death (+9x2), sword (+5), and Wpn Spec. (+2). This is for every 2H attack that I make with my Bastard Sword. Add Blades of Fury, Ki Strength, and Smite Evil into the mix and the damage climbs to 1d10 + 33. Cast Divine Favor and it jumps to 1d10 + 35. If the creature I'm attacking is evil I add another +2d6 because of my +5 Holy Ghost Touch Bastard Sword.
With all of the above figured in the first 5 attacks (hasted, of course) look like this 45/39/34/29/24. For the next five rounds it looks like this 39/39/34/29/24. After that it is 36/36/31/26/21.
Assuming all five attacks against my evil foe are successful critical hits (and we are for this example), the damage ends up looking like this.
10d10 + 310 + 10d6 or an average of about 400 points.
10d10 + 310 + 10d6 for a maximum of 470 points.
Against evil creatures that are incorporeal, invisible, displaced, mirror imaged, immune to critical hits, can't be caught flat-footed, can't be flanked, etc I will still deal out 5d10 + 155 + 10d6, or an average of 215 points of damage during the first round, and an average of 185 after that.
Equipment:
+3 Mithral Chain Shirt of Speed (constantly hasted)
+5 Holy Ghost Touched Bastard Sword (Intelligent, True Seeing, No Breathing, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge (5th Barb)
+6 Belt of Strength
+6 Gloves of Dexterity
+6 Amulet of Health
+6 Robes of Charisma
+6 Crown of Wisdom
+4 Manual of Gainful Exercise
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Probably the Frenzied Berserker is the one with the highest amount of damage per round 'till Ac 40/45, but he needs a Keen Falchion and two levels of Tribal Protector, and he's basically unplayable, since if you try to raise your Will save (to avoid attacking everything), you lose combat effectiveness...
The Iaijutsu Master can dish out the highest amount of damage in one round, probably wiping out most of the opponents (we're talking about 4 attacks with damage Weapon + 1*5 Str + 10d6 + 100 / 150 -depending on your Cha- each)..
The Duelist has only Weapon + Str (not very high, since it will probably be finessed) + 3d6 per attack, but he can stand untouched before a dragon in the meantime.. ..still, the point here is raw damage, so my vote goes to the Iaijutsu Master...
The Iaijutsu Master can dish out the highest amount of damage in one round, probably wiping out most of the opponents (we're talking about 4 attacks with damage Weapon + 1*5 Str + 10d6 + 100 / 150 -depending on your Cha- each)..
The Duelist has only Weapon + Str (not very high, since it will probably be finessed) + 3d6 per attack, but he can stand untouched before a dragon in the meantime.. ..still, the point here is raw damage, so my vote goes to the Iaijutsu Master...
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Happiest_Sadist
First Post
Fighter 4/Cleric 4/Sorcerer 2/Dragon Disciple 10
Exotic Weapons Proficiency (Mercurial Greatsword), Heavy Weapon Proficiency (Mercurial Greatsword), Gigantic Weapon Proficency (Net Book of Feats), Power Critical (MoTW), Retributive strike (Domain Power FRCS), Power Attack.
Assume a 42 strength (they can buff themself) and +16 from the dragon disciple and +4 for levels.
After someone wounds them the previous round (and a party member hastes them) they cast True Strike, then power attack for 14, and use both retributive strike and power-critical with their Gargantuan Mercurial Greatsword (4d8 damage). All dice are maximized for 248 damage automatically.
If he happened to have a flaming burst, shocking burst, freezing burst, acidic burst sword with GMW cast on it, the damage would boost to 392. (36 is of each element).
Exotic Weapons Proficiency (Mercurial Greatsword), Heavy Weapon Proficiency (Mercurial Greatsword), Gigantic Weapon Proficency (Net Book of Feats), Power Critical (MoTW), Retributive strike (Domain Power FRCS), Power Attack.
Assume a 42 strength (they can buff themself) and +16 from the dragon disciple and +4 for levels.
After someone wounds them the previous round (and a party member hastes them) they cast True Strike, then power attack for 14, and use both retributive strike and power-critical with their Gargantuan Mercurial Greatsword (4d8 damage). All dice are maximized for 248 damage automatically.
If he happened to have a flaming burst, shocking burst, freezing burst, acidic burst sword with GMW cast on it, the damage would boost to 392. (36 is of each element).
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I am going to harbor a guess and say that the most powerful swordsman will all collectively be found in Rokugan with each clan producing a uniquely powerful swordsman that can match any other clan's swordsman - all simply have different abilities.
As a prelude to this example let me first say that the reason why you don't see threads on the most powerful swordsman is because melee combat is by the nature of D&D so much more diverse than archery.
Archery by definition is limited to bows with a clear hierarchy to the power of bows with a mighty (+4) daikyu (composite long bow that you can kneel with) being the best bow out there.
Since every munchkined archer then will wield a daikyu, it is simply a selection of feats and classes. Here is a non-inclusive list of the archery feats:
point blank shot
rapid shot
precise shot
ranged shot
shot on the run
sharp shooting
zen archery
snatch arrow
mounted archery
psionic shot
the deeper impact version for ranged attacks (IA-IDHMBWM)
many shot (the non-epic feat in the epic handbook - again - IDHMBWM)
the dragon feats - let you do ranged sunder, ranged disarm, maybe two others - I forget
then you have
WF, WS, IC, PC (not sure if that applies to ranged weapons)
Rokugan has Way of the Wasp, WotS has Sting of the Wasp
I think that is all of them by official DND sources (as well as Rokugan stuff)
With regards to archer PrC's you have PA, DWS, OotBI, Bounty Hunter from Rokugan, and Tsuruchi ______ from WotS (sorry forget name), and a Unicorn PrC from WotS that focuses on mounted archery.
The melee combatant who lets say focuses on swords has scores of swords to sort through each with its pros and cons with no specific sword being better in all sword fights than any other - as opposed to the Composite Long Bow being the obvious choice for an archer.
The Swordmaster also has about 10 to 15 times the number of feats to choose from - IOW - it is simply impossible for the swordmaster to take all sword related feats as opposed to the archer who can get just about all of them.
Finally, the number of PrC's out there for a swordsman, to put it mildly is a bit daunting to sort through. There are some that stand out above others but there is no one particular that is the best since they are all focused to some degree on different elements of sword play.
Basically, if you want to pick a swordmaster that is "the best" you have to choose a sub speciality.
If I may commandeer this thread a bit, a propose to first limit this contest to characters who would preferentially select a sword (any/many/one/all) over other weapons. A frenzied berserker, as alluded to above can certainly dish out the damage. However, they are a lot more effective (well actually, in any normal game, they are just overkill and they can use their barehands, but that is another matter) with a weapon that has a high crit modifier like an axe or pick/scythe and power critical but more importantly are VERY effective with any weapon. An iaijutsu master seems to mesh better with my sense of a "sword"master than does the frenzied berserker (IMHO) because they focus completely on the katana and their abilities augment the use of that sword.
If you all agree to this limiation I next propose the following categories:
Best overall - this would include all abilities - probably going to wind up being a swordmaster that is a bit more diverse at the cost of alot of power in one specialty
Best defensive
Best offensive
Best offensive in first round
Coolest
Again, I challenge you all to find better swordsman than are in Rokugan.
THe best defensive would definitely goto the Phoenix Heaven Wing's initiate with soul of the four winds and a maxed out Void (using Depths of the Void). This guy's AC is somewhere around 100 - 120 and unlike super AC man, he has tremendous (I mean PHENOMENALLY TREMENDOUS offensive power) - He will be able to get something like a +80 bonus divided between any number of attacks, damage rolls, saving throws, armor class boosts and can do replenish that +80 once an hour.
Best offensive (in the first round) would goto the Iaijutsu master - simply scary with two attacks equating to a standard action, the bonus feats, the free surprise round, AND THE CHARISMA BONUS TO EVERY DIE OF IAIJUTSU FOCUS. As someone mentioned above - this guy can do something crazy for damage - in excess of a 1000 points in the first round. With expert tactician, he is unstoppable.
Best offensive in general probably goes to the Lion Singh Ragers - the full attack at the end of the charge is what will do it combined with greater rage, a raging weapon (from OA), and their crazy ass cool power attack feats (one lets you still hit if you subtracted too much with PA, the other lets you get a bonus to your next attack if you subtracted too little).
There are a few others that are pretty cool for overall effectiveness. The weapon master being able to do whirlwind attack as a standard action is damn cool - combining that with spring attack is extremely dangerous because all of the downsides of using whirlwind attack are negated.
I would argue against the duelist since the extra 3d6 max damage can't be multiplied. The ghostwalker is damn near the top for cool factor or overall effectiveness. However, this requires far more in game role playing for this to work - go figure
. The Master Samurai is pretty good (great for the Unicorn samurai from Rokugan), but the mounted combat req's suck. The tempest is definitely a powerful class considering they get 8 attacks instead of the normal 4. A tempest with 2 speed weapons (10 attacks) and pumping all his energy into getting bonuses to hit is very dangerous.
However, I would have to argue that the coolest swordsman is either the Mirumoto Niten Master (OA) or a straightup Scorpion Samurai - the disarming capabilities of the scorpion are simply AMAZING. Combined with feats in Song and Silence, they become very deadly opponents. The Niten Master gets a good AC, good attack, can do some magic stuff, gets spell resistance, and combined with the Mirumoto Elite guard gets mettle, evasion, the ability to prevent the use of spells, and spell like effects and with the right kata can cast dispel magic.
Guess this turned into a bit of a pitch for Rokugan - sorry about that - its just the world is so damn cool.
As a prelude to this example let me first say that the reason why you don't see threads on the most powerful swordsman is because melee combat is by the nature of D&D so much more diverse than archery.
Archery by definition is limited to bows with a clear hierarchy to the power of bows with a mighty (+4) daikyu (composite long bow that you can kneel with) being the best bow out there.
Since every munchkined archer then will wield a daikyu, it is simply a selection of feats and classes. Here is a non-inclusive list of the archery feats:
point blank shot
rapid shot
precise shot
ranged shot
shot on the run
sharp shooting
zen archery
snatch arrow
mounted archery
psionic shot
the deeper impact version for ranged attacks (IA-IDHMBWM)
many shot (the non-epic feat in the epic handbook - again - IDHMBWM)
the dragon feats - let you do ranged sunder, ranged disarm, maybe two others - I forget
then you have
WF, WS, IC, PC (not sure if that applies to ranged weapons)
Rokugan has Way of the Wasp, WotS has Sting of the Wasp
I think that is all of them by official DND sources (as well as Rokugan stuff)
With regards to archer PrC's you have PA, DWS, OotBI, Bounty Hunter from Rokugan, and Tsuruchi ______ from WotS (sorry forget name), and a Unicorn PrC from WotS that focuses on mounted archery.
The melee combatant who lets say focuses on swords has scores of swords to sort through each with its pros and cons with no specific sword being better in all sword fights than any other - as opposed to the Composite Long Bow being the obvious choice for an archer.
The Swordmaster also has about 10 to 15 times the number of feats to choose from - IOW - it is simply impossible for the swordmaster to take all sword related feats as opposed to the archer who can get just about all of them.
Finally, the number of PrC's out there for a swordsman, to put it mildly is a bit daunting to sort through. There are some that stand out above others but there is no one particular that is the best since they are all focused to some degree on different elements of sword play.
Basically, if you want to pick a swordmaster that is "the best" you have to choose a sub speciality.
If I may commandeer this thread a bit, a propose to first limit this contest to characters who would preferentially select a sword (any/many/one/all) over other weapons. A frenzied berserker, as alluded to above can certainly dish out the damage. However, they are a lot more effective (well actually, in any normal game, they are just overkill and they can use their barehands, but that is another matter) with a weapon that has a high crit modifier like an axe or pick/scythe and power critical but more importantly are VERY effective with any weapon. An iaijutsu master seems to mesh better with my sense of a "sword"master than does the frenzied berserker (IMHO) because they focus completely on the katana and their abilities augment the use of that sword.
If you all agree to this limiation I next propose the following categories:
Best overall - this would include all abilities - probably going to wind up being a swordmaster that is a bit more diverse at the cost of alot of power in one specialty
Best defensive
Best offensive
Best offensive in first round
Coolest
Again, I challenge you all to find better swordsman than are in Rokugan.
THe best defensive would definitely goto the Phoenix Heaven Wing's initiate with soul of the four winds and a maxed out Void (using Depths of the Void). This guy's AC is somewhere around 100 - 120 and unlike super AC man, he has tremendous (I mean PHENOMENALLY TREMENDOUS offensive power) - He will be able to get something like a +80 bonus divided between any number of attacks, damage rolls, saving throws, armor class boosts and can do replenish that +80 once an hour.
Best offensive (in the first round) would goto the Iaijutsu master - simply scary with two attacks equating to a standard action, the bonus feats, the free surprise round, AND THE CHARISMA BONUS TO EVERY DIE OF IAIJUTSU FOCUS. As someone mentioned above - this guy can do something crazy for damage - in excess of a 1000 points in the first round. With expert tactician, he is unstoppable.
Best offensive in general probably goes to the Lion Singh Ragers - the full attack at the end of the charge is what will do it combined with greater rage, a raging weapon (from OA), and their crazy ass cool power attack feats (one lets you still hit if you subtracted too much with PA, the other lets you get a bonus to your next attack if you subtracted too little).
There are a few others that are pretty cool for overall effectiveness. The weapon master being able to do whirlwind attack as a standard action is damn cool - combining that with spring attack is extremely dangerous because all of the downsides of using whirlwind attack are negated.
I would argue against the duelist since the extra 3d6 max damage can't be multiplied. The ghostwalker is damn near the top for cool factor or overall effectiveness. However, this requires far more in game role playing for this to work - go figure
. The Master Samurai is pretty good (great for the Unicorn samurai from Rokugan), but the mounted combat req's suck. The tempest is definitely a powerful class considering they get 8 attacks instead of the normal 4. A tempest with 2 speed weapons (10 attacks) and pumping all his energy into getting bonuses to hit is very dangerous.However, I would have to argue that the coolest swordsman is either the Mirumoto Niten Master (OA) or a straightup Scorpion Samurai - the disarming capabilities of the scorpion are simply AMAZING. Combined with feats in Song and Silence, they become very deadly opponents. The Niten Master gets a good AC, good attack, can do some magic stuff, gets spell resistance, and combined with the Mirumoto Elite guard gets mettle, evasion, the ability to prevent the use of spells, and spell like effects and with the right kata can cast dispel magic.
Guess this turned into a bit of a pitch for Rokugan - sorry about that - its just the world is so damn cool.
Jeremy
Explorer
Hmmm.. That's two PrC's, but we'll adjust here in a minute.
Base Attack is +12 and we've got 6 feats to work with, of which endurance, power attack, cleave, destructive rage, and intimidating rage take up 5 of them meeting prerequisites. Ok, well consider our last feat to be two-handed powerstrike from quintessential fighter.
Under our gold limit of 760,000 anything and everything is possible, so let's just go with a heavy keen vorpal flamberge +1 of wrathful healing (heavy is magic of faerun, flamberge is quintessential fighter, wrathful healing is enemies and allies). Let's power attack all 12 of the base attack against the AC 40 guy and see what happens.
+12/+7/+2 Base
+59/+54/+49 Base + Str
+47/+42/+37 Base + Str - Pwr Atk (12)
+51/+46/+41 Base + Str - Pwr Atk (12) + GMW (4)
Hmmm.. Looks like I'll use a little more of that money after all. How about a Metamagic Rod of Quickening from Tome and Blood for 151,200 gp, a Skin of the Hero from the Psionics Handbook for 68,000 and a Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone for 20,000 gp. No where close to our limit but now we can cast a quickened divine favor to get our Base Attack up to +16/+11/+6/+1 and we've got +4 more to hit besides.
+59/+54/+49/+44 Base (Modified) + Str - Pwr Atk (12) + GMW (4) + Magical Items
+55/+50/+45/+40 Base (Modified) + Str - Pwr Atk (12) + GMW (4) + Magical Items - Nonproficiency Penalty for Exotic Heavy Flamberge
+55/+55/+50/+45/+40 Base (Modified) + Str - Pwr Atk (12) + GMW (4) + Magical Items - Nonproficiency Penalty for Exotic Heavy Flamberge + Extra Attack from Frenzy
I don't think I'm forgetting anything. Ok, so anything above a 1 hits even with 12 power attack, and damage is.. Oh wait, righteous might increase our size to large... Let me see what the weapon damage is now...
2d6 (normal) -> 2d8 (heavy) -> 4d6 righteous might
So, 4d6+94 just from weapon and strength. +4 from greater magic weapon and +12 from power attack brings us to 4d6+110 with a crit range of 15-20 and a vorpal weapon that heals you half the damage you inflict.
So in an average round we have 5 hits for 620 points of damage against AC 20, 30, or 40, and as the threat range starts at 15, one of those is probably a crit upping the damage to 744 and lopping off a head and cleaving for another hit of 124 which adds up to 868.
Damn, that's pretty low for a cleric. Surely we can do better.
Well, only supposed to have one prestige class so knock off the frenzied berserker and allow me 3 more feats. Wonderful. I'd like mounted combat, ride by attack, and spirited charge please. Thank you. Add Rhino Hide Armor and we're ready to rock. Oh, but we now need Boots of Speed because we can no longer frenzy. That's ok, we've still got 300,000 gp to spend. Buy a Halruan Skyship.
Anyways, strength goes down by 6 meaning attack goes down by 3 and damage goes down by 6. But now we've got an extra level of cleric so our GMW is now a +5 spell. Giving us +1 to hit and damage, and now we are charging (presumably from high ground if we are mounted, let's say on a Young Adult Gold Dragon who's horde we septupled by donating a Halruan Skyship we had lying around) for +3 more to hit. So our attack bonus goes up by 1 on the first hit and our damage goes down by 5 but is now tripled.
I don't suppose we can buy the gold dragon a ring of haste from the WotC website http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/fc/fc20020518a can we? Why not. This is going to either be enjoyed as it is intended or shot down by people who don't like this kind of thinking.
So the mount and rider partial charge with the extra partial action dealing 4d6+105 damage with a swing of the same sword, but it's tripled because of spirited charge and the rhino hide armor. So that's 357 on the first hit. Then full attack action as normal for 4 more attacks and 476 more damage. Figuring one of the 5 attacks this round was a 15 or better we've got another crit and a vorpal head removal, making the damage total from the full attack action 595. Plus the 357 of the extra partial action is 952. Not bad for a cleric swordsman in one round.
Of course, the assumption of a crit was because there were 5 attacks and there are 6 numbers on each of those attacks that could crit. If it is the first attack that crits then the partial action is 476 and the full round action remains 476 for a grand total of 952 again. Phooey. I thought that'd be higher. But I suppose it's just increasing the number of times you do 119 so you just count the hits.
Oh well, cleric swordsman y'know. They have difficulty breaking 1000 points of sword damage in a single round. Of course, if we used those keen and vorpal enhancements to make it frost, shock, corrosive, screaming, holy for 6d6 more damage per hit, we'd break it, but every 20th level swordsman deserves a vorpal blade. They are just too fun, y'know?
Edit: DISCLAIMER: Cleric's are not the most powerful swordsman, I just wanted to put a cleric swordsman up here. And throw some fun numbers out.
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