D&D 5E (2014) The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

[Micah Sweet]

Assuming real world science is fine..but it is narratively convenient, not narratively essential.

Sure, but assuming that a fantasy world means the laws of science are meaningless doesn't work either.

Why don't we just admit that our view if these things is colored by our own preferences, and play the game at our own tables as we wish? Who are we trying to convince?

 

[Lanefan]

I could think of much better ways to reign in magical power than "and for this part of our adventure, no magic for you".

Even if I agreed depriving someone of their strengths could be interesting, what does a spellcaster have left if they can't even use cantrips? A Cleric could fight in melee, though not as well as a warrior (and I'm still boggled by the idea that there's this random area where even the Gods have no power). Maybe a Bard could manage. Bladesingers and Hexblades/Pact of the Blade Warlocks are screwed. Pure Wizards and Sorcerers? Wow I guess they can go back to throwing darts.

Oh and you know what would be fantastic? Encounter an enemy immune to non-magical weapons in this "anti-magic zone", in which monsters are just fine thanks. Now nobody can do anything!

Anti-Magic Zones sound more like Anti-Player Zones to me.

I'm not suggesting AMZs should be lurking around every corner, but every now and then it's interesting for both players and DM alike to see what happens when there's no magic to fall back on. It's certainly a good way to make normally-low-grade common foes such as Orcs or Goblins a bit of a threat to a mid-level party for once.

Damage dealing spells are, for the most part, pretty inefficient compared to what Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers, and Paladins are doing. Most haven't had their damage increased in a meaningful way since the 80's. Worse, rather than getting better over time, now you have to use higher level spell slots for them.

Just to get 10d6 out of a lightning bolt takes a 5th level spell slot. That's terrible!

I agree with you here. For some reason, when the designers looked at what spells to nerf they started with the damage-dealers, even though it could be argued a utility mage was more effective than a blast mage as far back as 1e and has only become more so since.

Buffs are super nerfed in 5e- most take concentration, and you have better uses for that, so few people are getting buffs, and even Haste has gone from a party buff to something one guy gets, and it has a downside when concentration ends!

So what we're really griping about, are spells that disable enemies and utility spells. Spending one spell slot to disable a group of enemies so it's easier to fight them seems pretty reasonable when you only have so many.

Now the utility stuff, that's where the issues come from, I would think. Especially when it lets the spellcaster affect the narrative in ways a mere skill check cannot.

Yep.

3e added in too many buff spells that needed nerfing. Utility spells are the headache and probably always will be; even more so if-when one does away with pre-memorization or plays a class that doesn't need to do so.

 

[Fanaelialae]

For those players who "don't find [this] particularly satisfying" I have no sympathy whatsoever.

If it's a powerful thing then there should be impediments to its use.

I don't think anyone's contesting a powerful ability should have limits. It's the type of limits that's in question.

You could have different limitations that are more based in myth.

Let's use polymorph as an example. We can use Medea as the mythological spellcaster of this effect in our example.

So you might have a spell that when you cast it, you enchant a piece of food such that when it is consumed, the consumer must make a save or be transformed into a pig (or similar animal).

This places new limitations on the spell. It's still powerful, but not in the fire-and-forget way of the existing version. The caster needs to figure out ways to deliver the food to the intended target. This might be as simple as tossing an apple into the gullet of an on rushing land shark, or as difficult as convincing a suspicious guardsman to accept your "gift".

 

[Lanefan]

But its is a valuable emotional button to press for people who think every superhero is a parody of Superman and also Superman is a parody of Superman.

Superman is a parody of something. At least, I sure hope he is; 'cause I really don't want anyone to expect me to take him seriously.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Superman is a parody of something. At least, I sure hope he is; 'cause I really don't want anyone to expect me to take him seriously.

A good man who refuses to be corrupted by absolute power, who uses near divine might to protect the world that adopted him as the refugee son of a dying world?

Hilarious.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Sure, but assuming that a fantasy world means the laws of science are meaningless doesn't work either.

Why don't we just admit that our view if these things is colored by our own preferences, and play the game at our own tables as we wish? Who are we trying to convince?

So here's how I have seen it play out.

Some people: This type of character can't do that in D&D, it's completely unrealistic

No people: This type of character can't do that in D&D, it's completely unfantastic.

Why don't we admit that I'm not telling anyone that the laws of should be meaningless? Simply that, where they are used, it is a particular stylistic choice at the table rather than an essential part of the game as a whole.

 

[Cadence]

A good man who refuses to be corrupted by absolute power, who uses near divine might to protect the world that adopted him as the refugee son of a dying world?

Hilarious.

And luckily his mom shares a name with batman. Also, he has the world's greatest girlfriend*, pal, and pets!

* Girlfriend, cat, and horse not pictured.

 

[Minigiant]

Strongly agree. Back in 1e and 2e, practically every NPC that had a name and a half-way plausible reason had a few levels of a character class (often fighter or thief). I miss seeing that, as now PCs are weird aliens with no real ties to the world they ostensibly grew up in.

Personally I preferred the 3e method with NPC classes. The levied freeman and the called knight being the same class doesn't feel right.

There should be a NPC class for every PC classes. PC classes for combat heavy adventurers. NPC classes for combat light homebodies.

 

[James Gasik]

And luckily his mom shares a name with batman. Also, he has the world's greatest girlfriend*, pal, and pets!

View attachment 261999

* Girlfriend, cat, and horse not pictured.

Streaky the Super Cat and Comet the Super Horse are actually his cousin's pets (if one counts a polymorphed centaur that's in love with Supergirl a "pet"- ain't the Silver Age great?).

 

[James Gasik]

Personally I preferred the 3e method with NPC classes. The levied freeman and the called knight being the same class doesn't feel right.

There should be a NPC class for every PC classes. PC classes for combat heavy adventurers. NPC classes for combat light homebodies.

Just as long as someone explains what the qualifications for a PC class are, and why Joe the level 10 Baker never found a good reason to take a level of a PC class.