D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

[Voadam]

because dart throwing or is it crossbows ... are such an iconic wizard trait... smh

Moldvay B/X Basic dagger only FTW!

 

[Garthanos]

I see.

I would not extrapolate from applicable skills and rituals both being one success on a skill challenge to them being explicitly supposed to accomplish the same amount of story impact outside of a skill challenge context.

When resolving important (not physical) conflict ie in skill challenges they are definitely supposed to have the same story impact if you do not let them do it when it is less significant that seems odd to me. .... Note when the rituals are most useful to the story ie most impactful they are the same as skill value to me that says something about the power of skill use to resolve difficult situations.

Easy situations that arent story important hmmm is that really the measure you want to make?

There is a middle ground of things that skill challenges are not as applicable at as they might be for instance when they arent a team oriented activity for instance. I think if you under sell skills in such a context that is on you ... and does not follow the general pattern of skill being able to achieve things like magic elsewhere. (if you want allow them to use a Healing surge to buff it identically to how the guidelines do during a skill challenge or similarly give them the perfect result only on a crit)

Page 42 lets us use a slot from your normal powers to enable an improvised maneuver obviously involving acrobatics but it is generally a combat stunt (not clear why the same paradigm would not apply to non-combat stunts nor why you would not want it to?). That slot usage to enhance what might even be an unrelated activity is also in Skill challenges. Its another form of digging deep.

Note all skill checks might not even be "level appropriate" but a skill challenge analogous skill check needs to be... while I definitely think a skill check not in a skill challenge should be able to achieve a spell like potency or ritual like one that does not mean just any check (nor necessarily cost free see page 42 and SC)

Martial practices aren't skills alone are they?

They are much like specialized applications of skill you learn and generally seem like protracted use of skill and to achieve specialized results, sometimes based on different skill than normally might achieve a similar result and comparable to rituals in power but not method with a HS cost instead of components (which they actually added to some rituals too later.) Few skill checks are normal.

I thought they were a feat based system similar to how you could use a feat to pick up ritual magic which uses skill rolls to succeed at the magical effect.

They arent a magical effect and no it didnt "generally" use skill rolls but could they were a generally reliable effect costing HS but considered applied via an associated skill

It was a later 4e thing that I never saw much of.

It was in Martial power 2 (Feb 2010 is less than 2 years in, not particularly late in the game), but they weren't developed very far... I have speculations about why.

Skill powers are feats leveraging skills to do things that the skill descriptions alone don't say they do, right?

Not feats at least not in the D&D sense ... in a general sense feats are a good word, they are utility powers comparable to spells and other utility powers yes.

Just options available because you have a skill they demonstrate skill achieving things directly analogous in power to utility spells.

Or am I misremembering? Are they utility powers open to anyone with the trained skill and so designed to be roughly equal power to equal level utility powers, whether magical or not?

yes you were misremembering and yes they really just confirmed that skill could achieve what spells could.

If you want some of that in 5e allow spending the superiority dice like maneuvers (see commanding presence for precedent)

or perhaps spend a Hit Die to really buff a skill use effect up in some fashion.
or
Pick up Level up as it has some of it too where you spend exertions to achieve greater effects.

Note 5e made a lot of rituals just plain free... which were admittedly effectively free when you reached higher levels in 4e. So not sure how exactly a 5e Martial Practices analog would work or I would have made it already.

Allowing skill application to achieve spell/ritual etc power potency was a ubiquitous pattern really associated with balance.

The pattern seems to me solid enough I can make improvising a ritual based on 2 level appropriate skill checks probably hard (since the improvised ritual would presumably be a "perfect" ritual for the situation)... the effect of a failure I would also draw from things I do in Skill challenges (a healing surge loss might be a minimum), It would have ritual cost perhaps a bit higher than its norm since some of the ritual costs are a bit like flavor it feels justified in costing more... ok this is off topic

I did not necessarily tell people when they are in skill challenges (though in chases yeh). Some DMs always do perhaps so they have a clue about whether expending more resources is going to be useful?

Any way it looks like I massively rambled.

 

[Garthanos]

And I have serious insomnia so the above post may be very much affected by lack of sleep.

 

[Lanefan]

because dart throwing or is it crossbows ... are such an iconic wizard trait... smh

Darts in 1e. Crossbows in 3e.

And I've never played an arcane caster who started out proficient in either of those. Dagger or staff for me, depending how I see the character turning out if it lasts.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Alchemy in the game is how you make healing potions, magical oils and such.

Not really. In XGtE the Alchemist kit is used for Alchemist Fire and Acid. Healing potions are made via the Herbalism kit.

So, alchemy is not magical in any way given their uses in the game.

 

[Maxperson]

Not really. In XGtE the Alchemist kit is used for Alchemist Fire and Acid. Healing potions are made via the Herbalism kit.

So, alchemy is not magical in any way given their uses in the game.

Not true.

DMG page 139: "Common items, such as a potion of healing, can be procured from an alchemist, herbalist, or spellcaster." ~ common magic items can be made via alchemy and oils are listed under potions.

PHB page 119: "Starting at 2nd level when you select this school, you can temporarily alter the physical properties of one nonmagical object, changing it from one substance into another. You perform a special alchemical procedure on one object composed entirely of wood, stone (but not a gemstone), iron, copper, or silver, transforming it into a different one of those materials." ~ school of transmutation(magical) ability.

Xan page 48: "You were made in a vat by an alchemist." ~ under arcane origins for where sorcerer's can get their magic.

Xan page 70: "A friendly alchemist gifted you with a potion of healing or a flask of acid, as you choose."

Potions can be herbs, but can also be created alchemically. To say that alchemy is not magical in any way given its uses in the game is objectively wrong.

 

[Vaalingrade]

None of what you just quoted says magical.

What do you get when you detect magic on an alchemist's kit? Nothing.

Because it's fantasy world chemistry.

 

[Xamnam]

XGE P. 79:

Alchemical Crafting.
You can use this tool proficiency to create alchemical items. A character can spend money to collect raw materials, which weigh 1 pound for every 50 gp spent. The DM can allow a character to make a check using the indicated skill with advantage. As part of a long rest, you can use alchemist's supplies to make one dose of acid, alchemist's fire, antitoxin, oil, perfume, or soap. Subtract half the value of the created item from the total gp worth of raw materials you are carrying.

Alchemist's Supplies

Activity	DC
Create a puff of thick smoke	10
Identify a poison	10
Identify a substance	15
Start a fire	15
Neutralize acid	20

I think it's fairer to say that while there are definitely magical abilities that are the exclusive domain of alchemy, that doesn't imply that all alchemical processes are exclusively magical. Whether 'processing' Basilisk Oil falls into the magical or non-magical side of it is going to be a decision at the individual table, but neither would be wrong in my eyes.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Also, soap and perfume are magic now.

It was bad enough when every discrete ability a PC can have was called magic.

It was bad enough when someone said Second Wind and Action Surge were too magical.

But now actual things in our actual, non-magical world are too magical.

We nerds have officially murdered both the word and concept of 'magic'.

 

[Lanefan]

None of what you just quoted says magical.

What do you get when you detect magic on an alchemist's kit? Nothing.

Indeed. But you do get a pull when casting Detect Magic on a potion of healing, so where does that magic come from? Alchemists can't imbue something with magic without using magic, can they? And most games don't have magical herbs or plants.

Which to me means alchemists are some form of non-adventuring caster.