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D&D 5E the dex warrior - why make a strength based one?

Oofta

Legend
DEX is overpowered. Discussing problems in games ultimately help make our games better. Designers want to know what needs fixing, and players enjoy discussing solutions amongst themselves. DEX does too much. It's a great combat stat. Using two light weapons means you can compete with the large two-handed weapons, and you get two chances to hit. Add in the right fighting style or feat and you can add your DEX bonus to both weapons' damage. You can now add your DEX bonus to ranged combat damage. It also is used for many adventuring skills, it adds to initiative, and is a very common saving throw. I have definitely seen an increase in DEX characters over STR in my games. Even players who are not min/maxers are lured in by the many treats DEX gives. STR is not "vastly" inferior but it is enough of a difference that it is a problem which needs to be addressed.

As with others, I find dex based fighters tend to overshadow other builds.

Reading threads like this gives me ideas how to balance things out. Do I:
  • Allow bows that use strength for attack and damage?
  • Let characters pull multiple thrown weapons?
  • Modify how dex affects damage?
  • Ban versatile weapons?
  • Ban (or modify) sharpshooter?

Or of course, none of the above because I don't think it's that big of a problem.

There's nothing wrong with tossing out ideas and having a conversation about alternative fixes.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
This discussion is about recognizing this fact
Or, at least, acknowledging the legitimacy of the concern. For any problem, there will be those unaffected by (or benefiting from) it, who will question that it's a problem, or feel the need to deny it exists.
so we can hope WotC will course correct.
We could wait for that, or, as DMs, just fix it to our satisfaction in our own campaigns.

Remember, 3rd edition was a huge success. And it had no less than eleven (11) checks and limitations on archers that 5E made the huge mistake of removing.
As painful as it can be to watch people make fallacious appeals to popularity to back up false conclusions, it's particularly frustrating to see someone who's otherwise making perfect sense resort to one.

The few restrictions, limitations and risks faced by ranged attackers (especially those using ranged attacks that don't call for attack rolls, and thus don't even suffer disadvantage when engaged in melee) simply don't compensate for the obvious advantages of attacking from a distance.
 

I do well with both Str and Dex based fighters. Just different builds. Athletics comes in very handy in many cases where Acrobatics doesn't, at least in my experience. The major downside to my Strength fighters is a sucky Dex save but even that can be mitigated by a Ring of Evasion.
 


Caliban

Rules Monkey
There are feats which allow a bow to be used in melee without any drawback (no pun intended) right?

Crossbow Expert allows you do it without Disadvantage, yes.

With the proper feats and class abilities, bows and hand crossbows reign supreme for pure damage.

Thing is, unless the DM is very lenient, you are going to be in melee, like it or not. And with the proper feats and class abilities, melee weapons and str builds give you more options and tactics. Polearm Master, Sentinel, Warcaster, Great Weapon Master, etc - they allow you to manipulate the battlefield, cast a spell, or just do even more damage.

Generally, it's just more fun being the melee guy. At least it is for me.

You don't just do the same attack over and over again (unless you choose to build your character that way). There are multiple viable melee builds and strategies, for both str and dex. Most of the ranged builds look pretty much the same, with only three main choices: Longbow or hand crossbow? Ranger, Ranger/Rogue, or Fighter? Sharpshooter? Every time. Crossbow Expert? Half the time.
 

Erechel

Explorer
I don't think that at all.

The overwhelming majority of D&D customers remain men, and they want to play fast and nimble characters too. Compare action heroes of today: the Stathem and Damons are much less obvious Strength builds than the Neggerneggers and Lundgrens of yesteryear. Also cue asian influences.

Bringing up gender only risks derailing the discussion entirely, and draws focus away from the core issue here.

---

So, let's instead posit the question:

Does the fantasy genre need Strength as paramount fighting ability?

I would say yes, it does.

Otherwise combat tends to become much more modern in that distance and cover and kiting tactics become viable methods, which completely overshadows the "Conan fighting style" where you manly wade into a horde of orcs, swatting aside their cowardly arrows, and then cleave them three at a time.

I would argue the basic rules engine of D&D is geared towards melee combat, with low movement rates and short spell ranges and a massive focus on melee monsters.

---

In 5th edition, with almost no checks on ranged fire, the tactic to stay at a distance and shoot everything dead simply becomes too good, too easy.

The only way to solve this is to ensure there is a definite cost to the quality of "range". Having range (more than 30 ft anyway, since most monsters can close 30 ft and still unload its best attacks) needs to carry significant consequences, such as lower damage, frailer builds and/or a susceptibility to being "caught" in melee.

Begin by removing the stupendous +2 bonus to ranged from Archery Fighting Style. Crucially; ban, remove or nerf the two feats Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert.

That at least gets rid of the most obvious excesses. Then I'd recommend playtesting to see if your players still pick ranged combatants, and thus, if further nerfs are needed.

Remember, 3rd edition was a huge success. And it had no less than eleven (11) checks and limitations on archers that 5E made the huge mistake of removing.

I get tired of comparing 3rd edition to 5th edition. To the day, I've seen too many people doing it. Remember 3rd edition, where the martial characters were a drag, and someone with a fighter is worse than an invocation from a non-optimized wizard? Yes, 3rd edition was a success, but not because the restriction of ranged combat (in fact, there isn't any real restriction to ranged spell combat, but yay! restrict the fighters! Nerf them! They use weapons instead of spells!). But I don't want to get involved in an Editions War. I'm a bit tired of it. I really never liked 3rd edition, to the point to hate it (because fighters always were my favourite class), and I've always prefered AD&D until the upcoming of 5th Edition.

5th edition is a huge success to this date. Is a really great edition, although it has its flaws. And ranged combat isn't the real deal once you take account of several actual issues with it:
1) Ammunition. Yes, you can take acount of ammunition, and it's really easy: put coins in a small bowl. That's your ammunition.
2) Closed spaces, like dungeons, forests etc., which favour melee combat, ambushes and surprise. YOu don't need a lot of stealth to be still, and most monsters are engaged in a small area. As a DM, it's very difficult to make ranged goblins effective at all, if they haven't cover or the best ground available. And the Ancient's paladin in my group has a Jump ring, that awesomely increases its speed and reach.
3) In flat grounds, cavalry. A barely efficient 3rd level fighter (like my own character) with a lance and a shield can attack for 1d12+6 damage, having a shield, knocking someone prone and move up to 120 feet in a single round. The battlemaster crossbowmen that I have can't use effectively its action surge, and isn't at all a great melee fighter.
4) COVER. The only way to get rid of this effective defense is grabbing the Sharpshooter, which is awesome, but negates the Crossbow Master feat in the early levels, and defensively isn't such a great option: you don't benefit from shields at all, and any ambush will hurt you. Badly.
5) Prone condition. Disadvantage on melee, but advantage on range. If you are surrounded by archers, you move prone, and you give disadvantage to the attacks. You move slowly, yes, but you arent nearly as pincushioned as you might be.
6) Even with those feats acquired, presumably at 6th level by a fighter, you don't deal as much damage as a melee character. And this is only the DPR argument. And you haven't as much defense either. You must rely on cover also.
7) Nerfing Ranged Weapon Combat isn't an option. This is the same as nerfing martial classes althogether: nerfing great ranged options, such as the longbowmen with their 300 feet range, is giving ranged combat to the casters in a silver plate.

I have a Fighter character. A human knight (battlemaster), specifically. And I've not suffered even once the difference with my Dextrous, highly-optimizer partner. Yes, he is fast, but mostly i found myself doing more damage, resisting combat better, and I've no use for stealth. If I don't want to fight, I just take away my armor and move as silently as I could (basically, need a good roll or the Pass Without Trace of my shadow monk friend).

My dex-companions are stupidly constrained by giant spider webs, grapples, worgs and warhorses. I've maintained a whole caravel afloat by grappling the main sail with my big arms! At level 3! And I've saved my companions from drowning, from suffocating when we got caught by smoke underground. And I've been profanating tombs with my shovel, breaking animated statues with my hammer, bended iron bars from a sewer, lifted heavy weights, etc. Stealth don't cover any of it. Acrobatics neither. Dex saves are nearly nonexistant on the first 10 levels. I've tried it. I've playtested it. The so-called god-stat is nearly useless in many, many situations. Although its super useful in others.

I feel a lot more powerful than most of my companions as I got a better action economy and usefulness with my Shield master feat. I've been knocking down enemies so my dex-fighter companion could deal damage tooo, but I've been dealing more damage than him, an we got mostly the same stats (18 on our weapon stats). I've being grappling spellcasters, while the tabaxi monk was destroyed by them (guiding bolt is an awfully effective spell, and guess what, it has a Spell Attack not a Dex save.), so AC is as effective as the Dex save against spells, if not outright better (I've counted 41 spells that trigger an attack, without counting invocations or animations of any kind, that obviously depend on attacks).
 
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Iain_Coleman

Explorer
Crossbow Expert allows you do it without Disadvantage, yes.

With the proper feats and class abilities, bows and hand crossbows reign supreme for pure damage.

Thing is, unless the DM is very lenient, you are going to be in melee, like it or not. And with the proper feats and class abilities, melee weapons and str builds give you more options and tactics. Polearm Master, Sentinel, Warcaster, Great Weapon Master, etc - they allow you to manipulate the battlefield, cast a spell, or just do even more damage.

Generally, it's just more fun being the melee guy. At least it is for me.

You don't just do the same attack over and over again (unless you choose to build your character that way). There are multiple viable melee builds and strategies, for both str and dex. Most of the ranged builds look pretty much the same, with only three main choices: Longbow or hand crossbow? Ranger, Ranger/Rogue, or Fighter? Sharpshooter? Every time. Crossbow Expert? Half the time.

I have to agree with this. I once rolled up a dex-based crossbow expert / sharpshooter fighter who used a hand crossbow to lay down rapid fire damage. Very effective in combat, great DPR. Boring as hell to play. He ended up heroically sacrificing himself.
 

Hussar

Legend
One area that gets ignored here, and I think that's a big part of why people feel Dex is so superior, is exploration.

Yes, the only Str skill is Athletics, but, if you use a fair bit of terrain in combat and exploration stuff, then Athletics is a BIG deal.

I've got an entire party of Dex monkeys right now. The highest Str in the group is 13. Everyone else pretty much dumped Str. Ok, fair enough, it's their character, they can do whatever they want.

But, you can bet dollars to donuts that pits are going to feature heavily in my adventure design. Think about it, if your strength is 9 or less, you can only jump 9 feet. A 10 foot pit is a MAJOR obstacle. Bad guys on a balcony overlooking the room with good cover is a HUGE obstacle. Sure, you can trade fire with them, while they have +5 on their AC's from cover. Go right ahead. Never minding that these characters are pretty much victims to anything with forced movement abilities.

If you want to see Str start to shine, add water hazards to your adventures. See how well those Dex monkeys swim. Or climb. Or jump. All that stuff that relies on Str and should be popping up in nearly every encounter. "Oh, you want to jump up on something? Gimme an Athletics check - :D"

Sure, in plain encounters with no terrain issues, Dex monkeys rule. It takes about 30 seconds to add terrain elements to an encounter, and poof, Dex monkeys are in a world of hurt.
 

Mephista

Adventurer
Apologies but this completely misses the point.

The game has been playtested and melee has been found wanting.

This discussion is about recognizing this fact so we can hope WotC will course correct.
No, I just disagree with your point. You find melee wanting. I don't. Many others agree with me.

WotC isn't going to see the forum and suddenly "course correct." Internet forums aren't known for being good standard of games.

You want to have a discussion on how to handle problems that arise in your games, sure. That helps a lot. But you lose out on a lot by thinking that your view on Dex / ranged is universal and not something that's not influenced by playstyle. And that its the fault of the game.


DEX is overpowered. Discussing problems in games ultimately help make our games better. Designers want to know what needs fixing, and players enjoy discussing solutions amongst themselves. DEX does too much. It's a great combat stat. Using two light weapons means you can compete with the large two-handed weapons, and you get two chances to hit. Add in the right fighting style or feat and you can add your DEX bonus to both weapons' damage. You can now add your DEX bonus to ranged combat damage. It also is used for many adventuring skills, it adds to initiative, and is a very common saving throw. I have definitely seen an increase in DEX characters over STR in my games. Even players who are not min/maxers are lured in by the many treats DEX gives. STR is not "vastly" inferior but it is enough of a difference that it is a problem which needs to be addressed.
Ehh.... I can't say I agree to any of this. Well, Dex does add to init. That is the only big advatnage it has over Strength. Everything else?

Two weapons gives you two chances to hit, but it also givs you a chance to miss for less damage, evening out the DPR. You can't add in a feat to get Dex, you need a Fighting Style, which means you're giving up a different fighting style's boost. Adding DEX to ranged damage just puts it on par with STR damage from thrown weapons. The saving throw bit is actually false - another poster did an analysis of monsters in the MM, and turns out that, if you count all the various Dragons as one monster instead of 10, there are actually more Stregnth saving throws than Dexterity ones. The big Dex skills are Stealth and Acrobatics, compared to Athletics, quite likely Intimidate, and shoving/grappling; the difference in value here is entirely game dependant.

The two are roughly on par, with enough variation that it depends on the game.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
One area that gets ignored here, and I think that's a big part of why people feel Dex is so superior, is exploration.

Yes, the only Str skill is Athletics, but, if you use a fair bit of terrain in combat and exploration stuff, then Athletics is a BIG deal.
Jumping a chasm or breaking down an obstacle can certainly come up. But swinging or tightrope-walking and getting through and around obstacles can, too. You can always break down the door or pick the lock. You can snap your bonds or wriggle out of them. It's a little freaky how closely equivalent STR & DEX can be, and in 5e, especially, it's just a matter of declaring an action the DM will go for as using your better stat.

That Athletics is the only STR skill does work for you in one sense, if you can convince the DM to go with STR, you'll be proficient in the only skill he might call for to add to it. ;) Oh, and if he doesn't go for Athletics, your Champion can finally use 'Remarkable' Athlete.

Sure, in plain encounters with no terrain issues, Dex monkeys rule. It takes about 30 seconds to add terain elements to an encounter, and poof, Dex monkeys are in a world of hurt.
Agility would seem to offer up a lot of terrain-based advantages, too. Ducking in and out of cover, swinging from things, tumbling under them, etc...

...just not breaking them, so much. ;)
 

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