Remathilis
Legend
So wizards in D&D can just use magic with no restrictions or processes or limitations... is that what you are claiming??
D&D does have an edition where magic missile is at will, ya know?
So wizards in D&D can just use magic with no restrictions or processes or limitations... is that what you are claiming??
Likewise.
And I don't know how many ways it can be explained - it's simple. Spells cannot provide a 'how and why'.
Spells simply assert that magic exists and can be manipulated. They only tell you 'what happens'. They never, ever explain how or why. The only 'why' which justifies magic is 'because the rulebook says so'. And the rulebook can say anything.
So the rulebook can say this:
Once a day a fighter can, through force of will and courage, leap 500ft.
Once a day a mage can cast 'the spell' fireball.
If you ask me how it's physically possible for a fighter to leap 500 feet, first you must tell me how it's physically possible for someone concentrating and chanting and waving their hands about to incinerate a room full of goblins.
If you don't feel the need to explain that (which you clearly don't since you state 'magic can't be explained') then there's no need to explain heroism or courage (It's heroism and courage. It can't be explained.)
Holding one class to a higher standard of 'proof' or 'plausibility' than another is exactly the double standards being expressed in this thread.
D&D does have an edition where magic missile is at will, ya know?
I read it - but surely this design outline (I almost wrote "madness" but thought that might be too harsh) is just to make a point?!
What CJ says here strike me as obviously correct, but I think Patryn is right about the difficulties of selling it. In edition to the points that Patryn makes, there are the frequently-stated objections to wishlists, to magic items being necessary at all, etc. Plus the objections to the pre-release suggestion that, in 4e, only high level characters could benefit from magic rings.
No, but if spells are all you need to allow wizards to do whatever because it's magic, then just give fighters something, maybe call them "exploits" or something, to explain how they do mythic things.So wizards in D&D can just use magic with no restrictions or processes or limitations... is that what you are claiming??
So the rulebook can say this:
Once a day a fighter can, through force of will and courage, leap 500ft.
Once a day a mage can cast 'the spell' fireball.
If you ask me how it's physically possible for a fighter to leap 500 feet, first you must tell me how it's physically possible for someone concentrating and chanting and waving their hands about to incinerate a room full of goblins.
No, but if spells are all you need to allow wizards to do whatever because it's magic, then just give fighters something, maybe call them "exploits" or something, to explain how they do mythic things.
Lets define "magic" as something that breaks the known rules of nature (a dangerous claim since we don't know all the rules. Lets pretend for a moment that our understanding of physics and chemistry are sound, if not complete).
...
The problem lies that the fighter's natural world is bounded; he can only do what we know we can do. The wizard's is boundless: we can imagine a lot more things we cannot do than things we can. Ergo, the wizard can do a lot more things than a fighter because there are a lot more things we can't do than we can do according to the natural world.
Does that make good, balanced, and fun gaming? Jury's out on that one.
EDIT: As to your point about the different types of magic... I agree, but they all still have a keyword that identifies them as a particular type of "magic" powers. Something like feystep doesn't... IMO that speaks to inconsistency and/or the fact that it is not magical.
Dude, I don't know how many times I can repeat this... spells explain how and why a wizard can use magic to do things... as well as the effects he can use magic for.
Strongly disagree. I'd rather wizard magic be spread out more (flight at 10th level, teleport near 16, stone shape around 7th) than force fighters to throw mountains and leap over oceans.
I didn't put any of the non-combat skills on the list since a.) I wasn't sure where the line between fighter and warlord is drawn and b.) It didn't seem relevant to mountain tossing. However, since you asked, a high level fighter should be able to impress the peasants and nobles alike with tales of his prowess, intimidate lesser foes into backing down with a glance, goad foes into making simple mistakes, size up opponents to determine strengths and weaknesses, grant bonuses to allies though example and advice, and lead impressive armies, drawn to his cause by both coin and reputation.
Scaling wizards back a bit would be grand, however there is an awful lot of excluded middle between what D&D fighters normally do and throwing mountains/leaping over oceans.
Perhaps the discussion would be more production if we could move away from these super-extreme examples and provide examples of what people think mythic fighters should be able to do in D&D. I'm sure some want to be able to cut a mountain in half, but they're probably in the minority.
1. By studying and learning how.Again, how do they gain these exploits? What is the limiting factor for these exploits? Why can't others perform these exploits...