The End of Good ol' d+d

[sfgiants]

You miss the point of my post

or most of it anyways. It is about a mindset of the players in which "there is only one way to play 3e." This is my real issue. It has nothing to do with cr's being easy to calculate etc. I will now leave this post as no matter how many times I say it, people get confused and keep dragging it back to a rule mechanics debate.

 

[Sir Hawkeye]

Arcady:
There's absolutely nothing wrong with those things.

The problem comes, as it always has, when players try to dictate the game to the DM. It's the same situation as in some FR campaigns wherein the players read every supplement, article, etc. and therefore "know" the world.

It's not really the system so much as what some people attach to the system. Call it "Internet Vehemence Leakage" or what have you. Extreme opinions gain momentum on message boards.

Another part of it is that 3E is viewed as more balanced than previous editions. Many people seem to be a lot more cautious about any change to the rules or even "winging it".
See "New BMW maintenance vs. ratty old Yugo maintenance"

Note: I do not mean to suggest that any of the posters here fall under the above broad statements.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Not what you think. After a lot of thought and 4 different gaming groups over the last almost two years I have come to some conclusions. First off, I love 3e a lot. As a player. As a dm, good luck. I have dm'd for over 10 years, but 3e killed it for me. The reasons:

-too much focus on balance (I know the reasons etc), but now there is a constant debate about balance. Prior to 3e balance was maintained by the dm. Now it is controlled by a rulebook (I know I could make changes, but it is easier said than done, believe me)
-All this focus on balance and the rules set as they are leads to min maxing, and powergaming inherently (I have been in groups where the group will hassle a player until they take a specific feat because "a barbarian has got to have cleave, or they are useless")
-stringent rules set limits creativity. If for a plot device I add in an interesting element, the players want to find out where they can find this...Not a bad thing, but sometimes limiting

While I know much of these issues can be dealt with by a dm with a firm hand, but trust me in a group newly gathered (via the net for instance) these issues are pervasive and not worth the hassle of dealing with. I love 3e, but it is a ton more work and hassle than 1 or 2e ever were. Just my 2 cents.

This is your original post. Most of it deals with game mechanics. If you wanted people to discuss something else, then this was a poorly worded post. There is no evidence here that you have a problem with anything besides game mechanics.

 

[Kichwas]

Arcady:
There's absolutely nothing wrong with those things.

The problem comes, as it always has, when players try to dictate the game to the DM.

You'll even get this problem in Everway, a near freeform RPG. Or any game in between. This has nothing to do with what system you choose and everything to do with the attitudes of the people sitting at the table.

I'll avoid addressing the FR thing here. That's a seperate flame war.

It's not really the system so much as what some people attach to the system.

Sort of. It's more the people themselves. If they attach it to DnD, they will attach it to BESM, GURPS, or even TWERPS. It matters not what system you choose. To solve this one you have to choose new people or change the ones you've got.

Another part of it is that 3E is viewed as more balanced than previous editions. Many people seem to be a lot more cautious about any change to the rules or even "winging it".

There's nothing wrong with a system that doesn't REQUIRE house rules. There's even less wrong with a system that makes a DM/GM think before adding house rules. Thus helping to ensure they do them right. The problem in the old days was often too many quickly added and poorly thought out house rules.

The consistant framework makes d20 easy to customize. It's like the difference between machine made parts that are uniformly sized to fit and hand made parts where you have no consistancy between one to the next.

If you're building a car you'll want the uniform tools and parts.

When slotting in a new mechanic for d20; there's a whole base of tools to build upon and work with.

As for the second part of this; a more thorough system for me (someone who's mostly winged it for most of the last 20 years) makes it easier. I can let my plots and stories wander secure in the knowledge that I can easily get what rules I need and stick to them as they will not suddenly change on me. To have a good formula for freeform, your equation needs a good 'k' constant in it somewhere... d20 provides that where pre-d20 DnD did not.

 

[Orcus]

Wow, I dont check the boards for a day and look what I miss

"Some people like to do a good job, and "winging it" is not usually a very good job, it is a sign of lack of preparation or thought."

Hmm. If you are saying winging it means not running a good session I disagree. I have had several DMs (my pall Bill is one) who is brilliant when he is winging things.

I believe you have to be prepared to wing things.

"If you like being unprepared and don't think much of your players, that's your business, but don't talk down to those of us who DO put work and thought into what we do."

You mistake me. I am probably one of the most prepared DMs you will meet. I script each nights session in act and scene format; heck I even script out major NPC comments and interactions so that I can spit them out in game without even a pause. My players love it. I put a ton of work and thought into my game. But even given all my prep, sometimes gamers go a direction you didnt intend. Now I imagine if this happened to you, you wouldnt halt play and say "come back next week guys, I have to chart all this out and make stat blocks" (I was teasing by the "now go make stat blocks" comment at the end of my last post but forgot to put a smiley). I hope you dont do that anyway. Every DM has to wing stuff at least a 1/4 of the time. Its part of being a DM.

All I am saying is that it is not so impossible to wing things in 3E as many people seem to say it is.

I use the same rule of thumb that has been proposed here: key skill for an NPC is from [level] to [level+3] and presuming a 12-14 in the key attribute; or half that for lesser skills it would be logical for them to have. And for other situations, use the old d20 + mods mechanic. You dont have to have the whole stat block done for an NPC to handle a situation. You should obviously have the stats done for the major NPCs. But with all the online support for NPC generators (like Jamis Buck's fantastic ones) it takes little time to generate one.

"Maybe your players like shallowness, but it is unattractive to many of us."

Ouch! I dont think my players would agree with that assessment, but maybe they just havent been telling me all these years...

"Good luck with your "extensive" experiences...just showing up doesn't make you an expert, it just means you were there."

No, actually, it means I was there running games. That is called experience. Just showing up would be not doing anything.

"But you must be perfect, and we are all inexperienced DM's, and you are an expert because you played a few games..."

I am far from perfect. I am not much of a rules lawyer (which is funny since I am actually a lawyer), I dont have a photographic memory (like my buddy Bill who can remember anything).

And for the record, it has been far more than a few games...

That was fun! (this time I will put the smiley)

Clark